glassgowkiss Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Read it Just a little follow up to the discussion in Leavenworth Ice update here
kevbone Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 "Ice Climbing is NOT rock climbing" No shit. Who thinks that? Holy cow what a fall.
Friedrich Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Wow. Just.. wow. And to top it off, those guys are STILL an accident waiting to happen. Will's comments are right on the mark. Will: 'The belayer says towards the end says "Falls are to be expected." NO THEY'RE NOT, not on ice. ' Preach it brother! Like most climbers my age that I know, I have never fallen on an alpine or ice climb EVER (15+ years) This is NOT because I am a hard man, this is because when I am pumped, I back off. When I am scared, I sew it up. When I need to, I hang. When I am well within my abilities, sure, I run it out like anyone, but these yahoos are climbing rambling, ledge-filled water ice routes like they're on top rope, when they're not! But they definitely should be. My reactions, in order as the 12 minutes rolled by. 1. HOLY SHIT what a fall 2. HOLY SHIT what idiots 3. Wow, those guys are brave for posting this video. Kudos for that, at least. I really hope someone in their community reaches out to them, and points them towards Will's post, and they take all his advice to heart. OK I can't leave this alone. Man, that dude is lucky. Things like this are why climbing culture's tendency towards one-upmanship, style wars, and cliqueiness kinda sucks. Perhaps it's part of our manly manly manliness or just human nature, but we all know there is an element of our culture that is intimidating to newcomers. Most climbers I know are very friendly and approachable but still, something makes it scary for people to come up to us and say "Hey, can you teach me how to do that?" This leads to a lot of self-taught climbing buddies who don't have any experienced mentors or formal training. This needs to change. We need to make new guys feel welcome, teach them what we can, constantly learn from each other, and be humble. Jesus that was longer than a blog post. Now I'll probably go fall off the climb I'm doing tomorrow morning. Edited March 22, 2011 by Friedrich
wdietsch Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 wow .. glad the injuries were as minimal as they are .. lucky guy. I'm wondering if the right hand tool, flaying around by his right knee on its leash, had anything to do with his popping off? Lucky he didn't get stabbed on the way down Reasonable argument for an advantage to leash-less?
Off_White Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I'm with Rad. Gadd's assessment is pretty spot on, and while new gear makes things easier and safer, I don't think it changes the fundamental rule of ice climbing from way back: don't fall. I really appreciate his advice: don't climb pumped, and if you're getting shaky, clip into your tool and hang while you place a screw. Don't be falling for style points, this isn't your new project at Rifle. Does that old rule not apply to the bolted overhanging mixed sport climbing thing though?
genepires Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 Does that old rule not apply to the bolted overhanging mixed sport climbing thing though? that is not ice climbing so the "don't fall" rule does not apply. Now if the rock was less than vertical, like alpine climbing, the rule would apply.
marc_leclerc Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) When I see people like these guys climbing, I prefer to leave.. I hate watching sketchy people climb, especially when they are oblivious to the fact that they are sketchy. that is not ice climbing so the "don't fall" rule does not apply. I strongly agree... Now if the rock was less than vertical, like alpine climbing, the rule would apply. No offense but that is bullshit, and who says that alpine climbing is less than vertical? Yes on ledgy alpine terrain don't fall off. But there are so many places I have gunned it on hard terrain in the 'pine' and been fully aware that I could fall, and been fully comfortable with that fact. Yes you need to be extra careful falling more than say 15-20ft on a slab... but by knowing how to fall on slab you can take repeated wingers from 20-40ft with little or no consequence.... going more than 50ft on slab less than 75 degrees (I have never done this) could have lots of potential for injury though. I find that is where the falling climber, no matter how experienced with slab falls will lose control and start tumbling and getting hurt... that said climbers who don't know how to fall, and are not aware of where they are in the air/fall can get hurt from small little falls even on steep terrain. Especially people who don't pay attention to the rope and their heels, which I see all the time. Even just planning, and thinking about the fall potential, and using proper belay techniques can greatly reduce the potential for injury. on one famous runout gear route the FA'ist got hurt several times falling and swinging into the wall, but a friend of mine who repeated the line fell 27 times with no injuries whatsoever by simply re-locating the belay to provide a more dynamic catch.... Edited March 23, 2011 by marc_leclerc
genepires Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) way to get all gnar on me Marc. I guess I have to be more specific with my statements but I figured that some things should be obvious. I suppose they are not. The discussion was about ice climbing (in the ice climbing forum...go figure) and morphed into mixed climbing. You are bringing it to rock climbing. My statements applied to the idea of climbing mixed ground with ice tools and crampons. I think we can agree that falling with these implements flying around while bouncing off small ledges and such is a bad idea. Now say you are sorry about the "bullshit" comment. Edited March 23, 2011 by genepires
Julian Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 Holy shit! I hope everyone who even thinks about picking up a tool watches this; not to scare them away, but to get them thinking about what you should and should not do on ice. The comment section on Will's blog has just exploded. Will's comments are on the money as always, especially "ice climbing is not rock climbing".
G-spotter Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 These guys are just digging themselves in deeper. "This video was for the wives and girlfriends, but we made a second video just for ice climbers?" W T F
Julian Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 Why do people insist on belaying with plates such as the Kong Gi Gi as if they are tubular devices, when they are not designed to be used as such (I've seen these before as well, with other similar gear)? If you want to belay like you are using an ATC, buy a fucking ATC!
marc_leclerc Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 way to get all gnar on me Marc. I guess I have to be more specific with my statements but I figured that some things should be obvious. I suppose they are not. The discussion was about ice climbing (in the ice climbing forum...go figure) and morphed into mixed climbing. You are bringing it to rock climbing. My statements applied to the idea of climbing mixed ground with ice tools and crampons. I think we can agree that falling with these implements flying around while bouncing off small ledges and such is a bad idea. Now say you are sorry about the "bullshit" comment. I'M SORRY haha... I thought you were talking about alpine rock for some reason yeah on alpine mixed is a very bad idea..... not my cup of tea.
genepires Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 apology excepted. now go climb some hard shite that I can barely even dream of. @ Julian regarding the gi gi. I have one and the instructions that came with it showed how to use it to belay a leader, much like a stitch plate. The reason people are using it as if it was a tubular device is because it was designed to be used that way. Now I am not agreeing that it is a good idea as I had a horrible time using it for belaying a leader. The rope did not slide through the device very easy but that may have been a rope diameter or user error problem. Why are you thinking that the gigi is not designed to be used as a belay device for a leader?
Julian Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 I mean using it set up like an ATC, which unless I'm reading the instructions incorrectly is not how it's set up to belay the leader.
genepires Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 You are right. It was a long time since I bought the gi gi and looked at the instructions. I thought the instructions had it so that you could use it like a stitch plate. (Like bring a bight of rope through one hole and clip it to the belay loop) But looking at their website again, I see that it should be setup looking like a carabiner brake mode. My bad.
glassgowkiss Posted March 24, 2011 Author Posted March 24, 2011 The point of my posting was to also show what happens when you are over you head and nobody was saying anything. The pictures of a climber sawing a 30ft ice pillar in Leavenworth was just frightening to me, and it also showed that the leader was way over his/hers ability. What really pissed me off were the responses like: way to go after it and such nonsense, simply and clearly encouraging such dangerous behavior.
spionin Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 holy shit dude! put it to rest already! i get it, ok? what would you like me to do? apologize to the climbing community for getting on that pitch? promise to never climb again? censor every picture of me that someone else puts up on the web?
G-spotter Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 The point of my posting was to also show what happens when you are over you head and nobody was saying anything. The pictures of a climber sawing a 30ft ice pillar in Leavenworth was just frightening to me, and it also showed that the leader was way over his/hers ability. What really pissed me off were the responses like: way to go after it and such nonsense, simply and clearly encouraging such dangerous behavior. and yet Will G says this: Falling off while placing a screw is a common way to fall, but totally needless. So, stop before you get super pumped, put in a good screw, reset, maybe back off if you can't climb the pitch without getting super pumped. Or, climb it in five-foot sections putting in a screw and hanging; I have FAR more respect for someone who doe that than gets pumped and falls off. If you're super pumped stop, reset. No "free" pitch is worth getting injured for.
yikes Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) holy shit dude! put it to rest already! i get it, ok? OMG, thumbs f***ing up , that could be said about so many conversations on this site. A lot to learn from cc.com but so much BS to wade through. Edited March 24, 2011 by yikes
tanstaafl Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Actually as V's belayer that day I would like to say that she was doing exactly what Gadd advocates, as Dru points out. She downclimbed to rests, she clipped in and hung, she placed a ton of screws, she never came anywhere close to falling off. So crazy Polish Bob may not approve, but evidently Will Gadd would.
YocumRidge Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 The pictures of a climber sawing a 30ft ice pillar in Leavenworth was just frightening to me, and it also showed that the leader was way over his/hers ability. Hey! If that scares you so much that you can't sleep at night and keep bringing this up at every occasion, why don't you quit climbing all together to stay within your ability? Give us a break dude!
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