Little Si Fixed Draws

[el jefe]

No, sport climbing sucks. It's starting to catch up with us too. Look at places like Eldo, Red Rocks, and now several Natiolal Parks. Now it's either no bolts or maybe with a permit. Surly even a stupid ass sport climber can see that. It's only the beginning.

 

if you are opposed to bolted routes why are you also upset that bolting is being regulated in certain areas?

 

[Frankazoid]

No, sport climbing sucks. It's starting to catch up with us too. Look at places like Eldo, Red Rocks, and now several Natiolal Parks. Now it's either no bolts or maybe with a permit. Surly even a stupid ass sport climber can see that. It's only the beginning.

 

if you are opposed to bolted routes why are you also upset that bolting is being regulated in certain areas?

 

It seems the idea of bolting even being regulated is still absurd to him. Disgusted with the fact that it didn't get thrown out all together. Boo f'n hooo... The funny thing about this is, that, I don't think many people are as passionate about this topic one way or the other once they go outside and get off the computer. Toot.

 

[boadman]

I've been climbing off and on at Little Si since 1995, and there was no "tradition" of fixed draws then. I saw you all coming down the trail in the downpour on Saturday and while I appreciate the effort in crappy wx, I also think fixed draws create visual clutter that doesn't help the sport with non-participants and some participants, creates extra maintenance and risk, and is completely unnecessary.

 

So not "everyone" expects fixed draws there, or even wants them.

 

And the position that an opinion doesn't count unless it's given while sending a route of proper difficulty just exacerbates the problem that the sport climbing community has with the larger land-use community: There are plenty of people who will see bright blue-clad permadraws hanging off a cliff along their hike and complain directly to land managers. You think their opinion doesn't count or affect policy?

 

In the same light, walking down the trail while drinking beer doesn't do anything to help our position with the non-climbing community, either.

 

One small point - The new fixed draws are much more subtle, visually, than the rainbow of nylon that was replaced. I doubt that the average hiker will notice them from the trail.

[Drederek]

Little Si is the epitome of a sport climbing venue. It never had a chance to be anything else. This is a great place for permadraws. However I truly hope these things don't start sprouting up everywhere. They definitely have their place and Little Si is one of them.

I'm sure most people hiking Little Si don't think they're out in the wilderness and I've seen plenty of them ooh and aah their way past wwI.

Thanks for the effort guys.

[johnkelley]

You're right, the idea of climbing being regulated is completly foreign to me. Could have stayed that way but we're too hungry for reconigiton, clearly shown by all of the "community service". It's sad to say but we may have lost our ability to regulate ourselves?

[jibby]

Were the long slings on Flat liner left in place?

[orion_sonya]

Were the long slings on Flat liner left in place?

 

They were replaced with long draws, very long draws.

[bucketz]

CLimbed that route in 94 with short draws that I placed on lead..always thought the bolts were in the wrong spot...uber long draws validate that!

 

RAD i've wasted more money on worthless projects in my life then you could imagine..luckily at wholesale the damage is minimized.

[soulreaper]

A couple of important points have been made on this thread. One that stands out to me is that access and land use 'rights' are quite subjective. The tolerance of land management entities for bolts, fixed quickdraws, even climbing itself changes over time. Even if these threads are nauseatingly repetitious at times (to wit, I'm reiterating what Kimmo said earlier), they still represent a form of interaction between different 'camps' of climbers and enthusiasts and as such hold some value. We must remember that we absolutely have bearing on access issues, even via the sometimes inane chatter on internet forums.

 

The Raindawgs and the 'anti-Raindawgs' offer little insight with their vitriol. Bandying epithets cliched through dogged repetition, these characters quickly devolve any interaction into a game of throwing feces. My own participation in these games in the past has always had the expected result of being covered in mud. When the same thing is repeated ad nauseum with little variation, especially when the one repeating considers it 'universally applicable', it suggests a refusal to assimilate new information and as such precludes any meaningful discussion. As has been stated, there are valid points to both sides of this argument. Although inevitable, the perennial churlishness does nothing to elucidate any of these points.

 

More care in crafting a compelling argument, as well as prudence in what one posts publicly on the internet to begin with, might both go far in improving the politics of a forum like this. If Supertopo is any indication, however, the challenge is formidable.

[Kimmo]

CLimbed that route in 94 with short draws that I placed on lead..always thought the bolts were in the wrong spot...uber long draws validate that!

 

yes, poorly bolted.

 

'94? when was this thing bolted? about the same time i think....

 

did you redpoint?

[Kimmo]

More care in crafting a compelling argument, as well as prudence in what one posts publicly on the internet to begin with, might both go far in improving the politics of a forum like this. If Supertopo is any indication, however, the challenge is formidable.

 

formidable-and probably unattainable-without the intervening hand of moderator.

 

humanoids, being humanoids, seemingly enjoy a little drama now and then, whatever the subject matter might be.

[el jefe]

...these characters quickly devolve any interaction into a game of throwing feces. My own participation in these games in the past has always had the expected result of being covered in mud.

 

i believe this is what is called a "mixed metaphor" -- if people are slinging feces, then that isn't "mud" you got covered in.

[matt_warfield]

What soulreaper said. Viewers please separate wheat from chaff.

 

And we need to pay attention to real problems like fixed rappel anchors on Prusik Peak. So unsightly.....

[kukuzka1]

 

 

And we need to pay attention to real problems like fixed rappel anchors on Prusik Peak. So unsightly.....

Next time your rappeling prusik just cut em down and carry them out. just leave one or two new runners behind. then again this qoute may be a joke I cant tell sometimes?

[telemarker]

 

And we need to pay attention to real problems like fixed rappel anchors on Prusik Peak. So unsightly.....

Next time your rappeling prusik just cut em down and carry them out. just leave one or two new runners behind. then again this qoute may be a joke I cant tell sometimes?

 

Cut the rap slings on Prusik. The W. Ridge can be downclimbed.

[matt_warfield]

 

And we need to pay attention to real problems like fixed rappel anchors on Prusik Peak. So unsightly.....

Next time your rappeling prusik just cut em down and carry them out. just leave one or two new runners behind. then again this qoute may be a joke I cant tell sometimes?

 

Cut the rap slings on Prusik. The W. Ridge can be downclimbed.

 

It was a joke. My attempt at sarcastic humor was to poke fun at a subject that will never be resolved. Meanwhile most of us live and let live. Sharma has done many 5.15s with hanging draws while others spray 5.15.

[selkirk]

I can belay 5.15 with the best of em

[abarlow]

I think that fixed draws have their place. Little Si is a great place for them, agreed. However, why did they make them so stand out'ish. They should have made them more camouflaged. I think bolts and permanent gear should be painted to blend in so it can't be seen from below. It would avoid a lot of the problems we run into with access and criticism etc.

[matt_m]

You'll never reach people who hate the idea of sport climbing period. So a "useful discourse" is a farce. I support all types of climbing, trad in particular. Those that cling to the idea that ALL CLIMBING has to have risk, adventure and danger in it to be "legitimate" do it for, imo, ego based reasons. I completely agree that there should be climbing that involves risk "(trad, natural gear, ice what ever...) HOWEVER, dismissing sport climbing because it "lacks" adventure is myopic at best. Again, you're never going to win over the fringes on either side...

 

Little Si is an IDEAL spot for fixed draws. High end sport climbing with some access and cleaning issues (ledge, over hung, no top access) make it a perfect place for it. Add to that the fact that the cliff is somewhat hidden amongst the trees and DOES NOT have some sort of scenic view quality to it again makes fixed draws more than fine. I'd also argue that MOST if not all hikers on that trail find the climbing to be an added visual bonus along the hike. How many people stop and watch ala El Cap meadow? We're not talking pristine back country trails here. We're talking a great suburban trail that gets A LOT of use.

 

There ARE areas where visual impact of fixed gear can be a concern. I was at a river side climbing venue where the climbs started 5 feet from a meandering stream. Pretty scenic. As you looked down steam along the cliffs the fixed gear hung in the air like numerous nesting bats. MUCH MORE visually intrusive.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2011 by matt_m

[orion_sonya]

I think that fixed draws have their place. Little Si is a great place for them, agreed. However, why did they make them so stand out'ish. They should have made them more camouflaged. I think bolts and permanent gear should be painted to blend in so it can't be seen from below. It would avoid a lot of the problems we run into with access and criticism etc.

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for the feedback. Have you gone up and checked them out or do you think they stand out based on the picture in the thread? I personally think they are not any more obtrusive than what was there before. That said, a coat of gray paint on them would be fine by me. Perhaps when I heal up sufficiently to hike back up there I will haul a can of paint up...

 

Orion

[Raindawg]

You'll never reach people who hate the idea of sport climbing period. So a "useful discourse" is a farce. I support all types of climbing, trad in particular. Those that cling to the idea that ALL CLIMBING has to have risk, adventure and danger in it to be "legitimate" do it for, imo, ego based reasons. I completely agree that there should be climbing that involves risk "(trad, natural gear, ice what ever...) HOWEVER, dismissing sport climbing because it "lacks" adventure is myopic at best. Again, you're never going to win over the fringes on either side...

 

Dude...you clearly don't understand the issues. There are at least two primary categories of reasons regarding why some people are offended by sport-climbing: environmental and stylistic.

 

a) Environmental. As opposed to the "leave little trace" philosophy promoted by nearly every outdoor endeavor, sport-climbers seem to think it's o.k. to leave their permanent metallic trails anywhere they please....and abandon their equipment for their convenience (e.g. fixed draws), typically on public land.

Degree of danger is not the issue. Sport-climbs are defined by lines of closely-spaced bolts so they are by nature usually much safer than gear that is placed and removed at each pitch, although there are plenty of "trad" climbs that you can "sew-up" with excellent placed-and-retrieved (clean) protection that is just as safe, if not more so, than bolted climbs. Again, "danger" is not the main issue....it's the mess sport-climbers gratuitously leave behind. From this perspective, rapping with a power-drill to "create" your "routes" is considered brazen and selfish.

 

b)Stylistic. Hang-dogging and siege-climbing your way up a climb is of secondary concern to environmental issues. If you want to spend a month rehearsing a 50 foot climb, go to it, but don't pretend that you have the same skills as someone who can do it on-site. Hang, siege, pink/purple/orange/brown-whatever-point you want. Who cares, but don't expect everyone to respect your antics. Why not place clean gear and pull it, and your ropes, when you're done? And if it's crackless or too hard for you, why not top-rope it instead....or just climb in places where you don't have to leave your permanent mess?

Do sport-climbs lack adventure? Is it a weak-sauce permutation of climbing? Many believe so, but again, in my opinion, the physical environmental issues are foremost.

[RuMR]

BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO

[Alex]

cue broken record

[Raindawg]

cue broken record

 

BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO

 

Feelin' guilty?

 

[keenwesh]

raindawg, your chest thumping "sportclimbing sucks!" banter is super fucking annoying. You aren't changing anyones mind. (and I'm sure I'm not changing yours) You don't have to take every opportunity you can to get your already widely known views out there. Sportclimbing is convenient, fun, and here to stay. stop whining. you're acting like a child.