Mosque at ground zero?

[ivan]

you can't really appreciate shakespeare until you've read it in the original klingon

[ivan]

i've know several very cool muslims - all of them were at the same time great critics of the cultures that created them, as well as defenders of it - none were remotely close to being religious zealots - sure, islam seems deeply fucked, and maybe its even more stupid than jesus-anity (the horror! ), but its pretty hard for the cold, logical analysis of any religion/cultures deficiencies vis a vis your own not to quickly get carried away into proscriptions against said way of life, especially when the political crowd you're appealing too has an attention span insufficient to take on an entire "entertainment weekly" while standing, sweaty-palmed, in the walmart check out aisle, no? being nervous and instantly critical of srtident critics of islam seems to be an intelligent instinct.

 

frankly i don't trust any religion as anti-alcohol and anti-decent fornicating as this'un! )

[prole]

Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today.

 

Apparently, they're so obvious that it's not even necessary to speak of them, much less apply a similar historical analysis to contemporary Islam and its modern political and economic contexts. What a joke.

[JayB]

Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today.

 

Apparently, they're so obvious that it's not even necessary to speak of them, much less apply a similar historical analysis to contemporary Islam and its modern political and economic contexts. What a joke.

 

Interesting - I hope you'll spell this out in more detail.

 

I think you attempted this before, but the patronizing, post-colonial relativisopologia for every species of backwardness and barbarism ran aground on the whole death-penalty for apostates thing, if I recall correctly.

 

Have another crack at it, though.

[JayB]

i've know several very cool muslims - all of them were at the same time great critics of the cultures that created them, as well as defenders of it - none were remotely close to being religious zealots - sure, islam seems deeply fucked, and maybe its even more stupid than jesus-anity (the horror! ), but its pretty hard for the cold, logical analysis of any religion/cultures deficiencies vis a vis your own not to quickly get carried away into proscriptions against said way of life, especially when the political crowd you're appealing too has an attention span insufficient to take on an entire "entertainment weekly" while standing, sweaty-palmed, in the walmart check out aisle, no? being nervous and instantly critical of srtident critics of islam seems to be an intelligent instinct.

 

frankly i don't trust any religion as anti-alcohol and anti-decent fornicating as this'un! )

 

It's a Sam Harris quote-a-thon:

 

"The New York Times has declared that the proposed mosque will be nothing less than “a monument to tolerance.” It goes without saying that tolerance is a value to which we should all be deeply committed. Nor can we ignore the fact that many who oppose the construction of this mosque embody all that is terrifyingly askew in conservative America—“birthers,” those sincerely awaiting the Rapture, opportunistic Republican politicians, and utter lunatics who yearn to see Sarah Palin become the next president of the United States (note that Palin herself probably falls into several of these categories). These people are wrong about almost everything under the sun. The problem, however, is that they are not quite wrong about Islam.

 

In his speech supporting the mosque, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said: “We would betray our values—and play into our enemies' hands—if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else.” This statement has the virtue of being almost true. But it is also true that honest, freedom-loving Muslims should be the first to view their fellow Muslims somewhat differently. At this point in human history, Islam simply is different from other faiths. The challenge we all face, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is to find the most benign and practical ways of mitigating these differences and of changing this religion for the better."

[KaskadskyjKozak]

you can't really appreciate shakespeare until you've read it in the original klingon

 

Speaking of cling-ons, where's Prole?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today.

 

Apparently, they're so obvious that it's not even necessary to speak of them, much less apply a similar historical analysis to contemporary Islam and its modern political and economic contexts. What a joke.

 

There "it" is... get the T.P. quick!

[tvashtarkatena]

Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today.

 

Apparently, they're so obvious that it's not even necessary to speak of them, much less apply a similar historical analysis to contemporary Islam and its modern political and economic contexts. What a joke.

 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki....onward Christian soldiers!

 

There "it" is... get the T.P. quick!

[rob]

So, have you guys decided whether you're going to let them build it or not? I'm sure they're urgently awaiting your decision!

[olyclimber]

tearist?

 

 

 

http://downtownseattle.komonews.com/content/man-charged-racially-charged-attack-turban-wearing-man

[Nitrox]

I haven't been following this thread too close but you guys realize the proposed Mosque would be three or four blocks away from ground zero, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[summitchaserCJB]

I haven't either but here is a map

mapy

[tvashtarkatena]

It should be 3 or 4 HUNDRED MILLION BILLION BLOCKS from Freedom's Epicenter , and not one GOD-DAMN-INCH-CLOSER.

[tvashtarkatena]

I think an opportunity was missed when they failed to install missile silos at Gowned Zero.

 

This decade's over in 4 months. After it is, if I hear yet another jaggoff utter the phrase 'terrorist threat', I'm going to shit in their mouth.

 

GET

 

FUCKING

 

OVER IT.

[el jefe]

I haven't been following this thread too close but you guys realize the proposed Mosque would be three or four blocks away from ground zero, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

so what's your point?

[Nitrox]

I haven't been following this thread too close but you guys realize the proposed Mosque would be three or four blocks away from ground zero, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so what's your point?

 

Three or four blocks away isn't ground zero. The location can't even be seen from "ground zero".

[ivan]

Three or four blocks away isn't ground zero. The location can't even be seen from "ground zero".

also relevant, it's no more a "mosque" than a ymca is a "church"

[Nitrox]

Three or four blocks away isn't ground zero. The location can't even be seen from "ground zero".

also relevant, it's no more a "mosque" than a ymca is a "church"

 

Yeah but do you want Muslims doing pull-ups just three of four blocks from ground zero?

 

 

[AlpineK]

Apparently flash dancing near ground zero is protected by the Tea Party.

 

http://www.politicususa.com/en/ground-zero-strip-club

 

[Jim]

Despite his past equivocations on this issue, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf could dispel these fears in a single paragraph:

 

"Like all decent people, I am horrified by much that goes on in the name of 'Islam,' and I consider it a duty of all moderate Muslims to recognize that many of the doctrines espoused in the Qur'an and hadith present some unique liabilities at this moment in history. Our traditional ideas about martyrdom, jihad, blasphemy, apostasy, and the status of women must be abandoned, as they are proving disastrous in the 21st century. Many of Islam's critics have fully justified concerns about the state of discourse in parts of the Muslim world--where it is a tissue of conspiracy theories, genocidal ravings regarding the Jews, and the most abject, triumphalist fantasies about conquering the world for the glory of Allah. While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith. Hence, we do not tend to see vast numbers of Jews and Christians calling for the murder of apostates today. This is not true of Islam, and there is simply no honest way of denying this shocking disparity. We are members of a faith community that appears more concerned about harmless cartoons than about the daily atrocities committed in its name--and no one suffers from this stupidity and barbarism more than our fellow Muslims. Islam must grow up. And Muslim moderates like ourselves must be the first to defend the rights of novelists, cartoonists, and public intellectuals to criticize all religious faiths, including our own."

 

These are the sorts of sentiments that should be the litmus test for Muslim moderation. Find an imam who will speak this way, and gather followers who think this way, and I'll volunteer to cut the ribbon on his mosque in lower Manhattan.

 

Sam Harris"

 

Amen.

 

Hard to argue with this one.

[prole]

 

Good luck with your "Islam's bad, mmm'kay" approach, Jay.

 

After the Flood, A Stream of Radical Islamists

 

By Reza Jan Tuesday, August 10, 2010

 

Filed under: World Watch, Government & Politics

Pakistan’s historic flooding has undone months of intense counterinsurgency efforts and allowed militant Islamist groups to burnish their image.

 

Pakistanis could be forgiven for thinking they are jinxed while their country endures one tragedy after another. Just days after an air crash killed 152 in Islamabad in the worst accident in Pakistan’s aviation history, severe flooding inundated large swaths of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, formerly the North West Frontier Province. The flooding, beyond human and material damage, has undone months of intense counterinsurgency efforts and allowed militant Islamist groups to burnish their image as the providers of humanitarian aid.

 

The flooding is the worst in Pakistan’s history and the worst the region has seen in more than 80 years. The UN now says the flooding has eclipsed the scale of devastation seen during the 2004 tsunami and the earthquakes that hit Pakistan in 2005 and Haiti in 2010. Over 1,600 people have died thus far, and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees estimates that 1.5 million people have been displaced and more than 13.8 million people have been affected by the rising waters. Whole villages remain under water, and the torrential downpour continues to hamper ongoing rescue efforts.

 

Swat, one of the areas hardest hit by the flooding, suffered more than two years of Taliban domination before the Pakistani army launched an offensive there in May 2009. Since then, Swat has been slowly reacquainting itself with peace. The severe flooding has, however, undone much of the reconstruction and economic rehabilitation effort. Crops have been inundated, livestock killed, homes and businesses submerged, and many of the district’s oldest and most famous hotels—a crucial part of the tourism industry that is the district’s lifeblood—have been washed away.

 

Recovering and rebuilding after a setback like this will be a real opportunity to display true capacity for governance. One can only hope it is the government that fills those shoes.

 

The flooding risks undoing much of the counterinsurgency campaign in Swat. Following last year’s operation, the military began rebuilding much of the district’s transportation infrastructure that had been destroyed during the course of the offensive. The floodwaters have, however, severely damaged roads and washed away virtually every bridge in the district. The breakdown in the road network has meant that much of the rescue effort has been forced to rely on airlift.

 

The army’s reconstruction projects helped gain the trust of local Swatis. The enduring security, underwritten by a large military presence, allowed a return to normalcy that had escaped the region for years. Yet the poverty and hardship brought by the flooding and disaffection with the government’s slow response to the crisis risks allowing the Taliban to once again gain a foothold.

 

Anti-government protests have broken out in some areas. Food and supplies have been slow to reach the displaced, and aid trucks have sometimes been ransacked. Prices for key commodities have, in some places, tripled, and crop and farmland destruction has been widespread. Following some of its worst wheat shortages, Pakistan last year saw a bumper wheat crop. The government did little to improve its storage capacity, and enormous quantities of unsold wheat are said to have rotted by the side of the road.

 

Jamaat-ud-Dawa gained renown after the 2005 earthquake in Pakistan, when it was one of the only groups operating an effective aid and relief service in the affected region.

 

Groups such as Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) have stepped into the vacuum to provide relief aid and social services to those affected by the flooding. JuD has already established 13 relief camps in surrounding districts, providing food to the displaced and running an ambulance service. JuD now says it has 2,000 members working in the region. The group claims to be involved solely in charitable work but is widely believed to be a front for the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, responsible for the 2008 Mumbai attack. JuD gained renown after the 2005 earthquake in Pakistan, when it was one of the only groups operating an effective aid and relief service in the affected region, often eclipsing the government’s own efforts and providing help to areas that the authorities sometimes took days or weeks just to reach.

 

As long as government incompetency and inadequacy continues to hamper the relief effort, it will be impossible to deny groups like JuD the space to operate. By working effectively during times of severe need, groups like JuD, much like Hezbollah, are able to burnish their image as charitable organizations and extend their networks of grassroots support. While doing real good, however, they are also providing a front for the more insidious and violent activities of their militant wings.

 

Pakistan’s floods have assaulted a nation already in mourning and increased the hardships for people who have seen little peace over the last few years. An inadequate government response to the crisis has caused outrage and allowed groups with terrorist ties to increase their support. The destruction has caused major reversals in the Swat counterinsurgency effort that was beginning to show signs of real success. Recovering and rebuilding after a setback like this will be a real opportunity to display true capacity for governance. One can only hope it is the government that fills those shoes.

 

Reza Jan was recently in the Swat Valley conducting research on the Taliban insurgency in northwest Pakistan. He is the Pakistan Team Lead at AEI’s Critical Threats Project.

[prole]

Hard to argue with this one.

 

Is there anyone here that is?

[JayB]

Not Alan Ginsberg:

 

"I got to know the poet Allen Ginsberg towards the end of his life. Not very well, just a nodding acquaintance, but after he died I attended a memorial in his honor at the City University Graduate School. At that service, his personal assistant related a story about Ginsberg’s reaction to the death sentence pronounced on the novelist Salman Rushdie by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1989. Rushdie’s “crime,” you’ll recall, was writing a provocative, perhaps even blasphemous novel inspired by the life of Muhammad called The Satanic Verses.

 

Though I might be screwing up a few details, the gist of the story was as follows: Soon after news of the fatwa broke, Ginsberg and his assistant climbed into the back seat of a taxi in Manhattan. After a glance at the cab driver’s name, Ginsberg politely inquired if he was a Muslim. When the cabbie replied that he was, Ginsberg asked him what he thought about the death sentence on Rushdie. The cabbie answered that he thought that Rushdie’s book was disrespectful of Islam, and that the Ayatollah had every right to do what he had done. At this point, according to his assistant, Ginsberg, one of the gentlest men ever to walk the planet, flew into a rage, screaming at the cabbie as he continued to drive, “Then I shit on your religion! Do you hear me? I shit on Islam! I shit on Muhammad! Do you hear? I shit on Muhammad!” Ginsberg demanded that the cabbie pull over. The cabbie complied, and, without paying the fare, Ginsberg and his assistant climbed out. He was still screaming at the cabbie as the car drove off."

 

http://reason.com/archives/2010/05/14/the-poet-versus-the-prophet

 

What *are* you arguing, BTW?

[JayB]

Good luck with your "Islam's bad, mmm'kay" approach, Jay.

 

After the Flood, A Stream of Radical Islamists

 

By Reza Jan Tuesday, August 10, 2010

 

Filed under: World Watch, Government & Politics

Pakistan’s historic flooding has undone months of intense counterinsurgency efforts and allowed militant Islamist groups to burnish their image.

 

Pakistanis could be forgiven for thinking they are jinxed while their country endures one tragedy after another. Just days after an air crash killed 152 in Islamabad in the worst accident in Pakistan’s aviation history, severe flooding inundated large swaths of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, formerly the North West Frontier Province. The flooding, beyond human and material damage, has undone months of intense counterinsurgency efforts and allowed militant Islamist groups to burnish their image as the providers of humanitarian aid.

 

The flooding is the worst in Pakistan’s history and the worst the region has seen in more than 80 years. The UN now says the flooding has eclipsed the scale of devastation seen during the 2004 tsunami and the earthquakes that hit Pakistan in 2005 and Haiti in 2010. Over 1,600 people have died thus far, and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees estimates that 1.5 million people have been displaced and more than 13.8 million people have been affected by the rising waters. Whole villages remain under water, and the torrential downpour continues to hamper ongoing rescue efforts.

 

Swat, one of the areas hardest hit by the flooding, suffered more than two years of Taliban domination before the Pakistani army launched an offensive there in May 2009. Since then, Swat has been slowly reacquainting itself with peace. The severe flooding has, however, undone much of the reconstruction and economic rehabilitation effort. Crops have been inundated, livestock killed, homes and businesses submerged, and many of the district’s oldest and most famous hotels—a crucial part of the tourism industry that is the district’s lifeblood—have been washed away.

 

Recovering and rebuilding after a setback like this will be a real opportunity to display true capacity for governance. One can only hope it is the government that fills those shoes.

 

The flooding risks undoing much of the counterinsurgency campaign in Swat. Following last year’s operation, the military began rebuilding much of the district’s transportation infrastructure that had been destroyed during the course of the offensive. The floodwaters have, however, severely damaged roads and washed away virtually every bridge in the district. The breakdown in the road network has meant that much of the rescue effort has been forced to rely on airlift.

 

The army’s reconstruction projects helped gain the trust of local Swatis. The enduring security, underwritten by a large military presence, allowed a return to normalcy that had escaped the region for years. Yet the poverty and hardship brought by the flooding and disaffection with the government’s slow response to the crisis risks allowing the Taliban to once again gain a foothold.

 

Anti-government protests have broken out in some areas. Food and supplies have been slow to reach the displaced, and aid trucks have sometimes been ransacked. Prices for key commodities have, in some places, tripled, and crop and farmland destruction has been widespread. Following some of its worst wheat shortages, Pakistan last year saw a bumper wheat crop. The government did little to improve its storage capacity, and enormous quantities of unsold wheat are said to have rotted by the side of the road.

 

Jamaat-ud-Dawa gained renown after the 2005 earthquake in Pakistan, when it was one of the only groups operating an effective aid and relief service in the affected region.

 

Groups such as Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) have stepped into the vacuum to provide relief aid and social services to those affected by the flooding. JuD has already established 13 relief camps in surrounding districts, providing food to the displaced and running an ambulance service. JuD now says it has 2,000 members working in the region. The group claims to be involved solely in charitable work but is widely believed to be a front for the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, responsible for the 2008 Mumbai attack. JuD gained renown after the 2005 earthquake in Pakistan, when it was one of the only groups operating an effective aid and relief service in the affected region, often eclipsing the government’s own efforts and providing help to areas that the authorities sometimes took days or weeks just to reach.

 

As long as government incompetency and inadequacy continues to hamper the relief effort, it will be impossible to deny groups like JuD the space to operate. By working effectively during times of severe need, groups like JuD, much like Hezbollah, are able to burnish their image as charitable organizations and extend their networks of grassroots support. While doing real good, however, they are also providing a front for the more insidious and violent activities of their militant wings.

 

Pakistan’s floods have assaulted a nation already in mourning and increased the hardships for people who have seen little peace over the last few years. An inadequate government response to the crisis has caused outrage and allowed groups with terrorist ties to increase their support. The destruction has caused major reversals in the Swat counterinsurgency effort that was beginning to show signs of real success. Recovering and rebuilding after a setback like this will be a real opportunity to display true capacity for governance. One can only hope it is the government that fills those shoes.

 

Reza Jan was recently in the Swat Valley conducting research on the Taliban insurgency in northwest Pakistan. He is the Pakistan Team Lead at AEI’s Critical Threats Project.

 

It's amusing to me that you'd post this as a refutation, rather than a confirmation, of what critics of Islam have been arguing for years.

 

Imagine reading the article and changing "Islam" to "Buddhism," and "Muslims," to "Buddhists."

 

Imagine an article who's major unstated premise - its "given" - was that the natural reflex of Buddhists responding to *flooding* would be to enhance their allegiance to a moral and political order that sanctioned the most obscene medieval barbarisms as divine manifestations of god's will, and that would ultimately to prompt even more of the most devout amongst them to lash out at the rest of mankind in spectacular fits of homicidal violence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[prole]

Thanks for reposting the hate-screed. Should replay well with your people in Murfreesboro.

 

Well, first what I'd argue for is a more nuanced approach recognizing different practices within Islam. While I'm sure you agree, you seem to want to play both sides: pushing for modernization and moderation while making sweeping generalizations and condemning the religion and its followers as a whole. Secondly, I'd argue for an historical approach that understands contemporary Islam and especially its militant political variant in context in order to formulate policies that can help undercut extremism and the process of radicalization. As your boy points out above, the Old Testament is far more bloodthirsty a text than the Koran, yet we see far less extremism and acting on the basis of those texts amongst Christians and Jews. Why? Treating Islam as a monolithic, abstracted, timeless construct is as an analytical dead end as trying to understand kamakazi attacks as the inevitable outgrowth of Shinto. But of course for folks with as many cold-war skeletons (not to mention more recent policy catastrophes) in the closet as your friends have, I can understand your reluctance to go there.