Mosque at ground zero?

[JosephH]

The polarizing is courtesy of the Koch family who have now bought the republican and tea parties lock, stock, and barrel with oil money and are the personification of a resurgent John Birch Society.

[tvashtarkatena]

Ohhhh, Joseph, the Tea Party movement is completely GRASS ROOTS. Didn't you know that?

 

Proof positive that you can get a bunch of clueless dumbfucks to do just about anything for you if you've got the right connections.

[tvashtarkatena]

Pop quiz: the Koch's (the main funders behind the Tea Party Movement) won their family fortune building refineries for GUESS WHO?

 

KKK, you should get this one right away. He's your very favorite historical figure.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Pop quiz: the Koch's (the main funders behind the Tea Party Movement) won their family fortune building refineries for GUESS WHO?

 

KKK, you should get this one right away. He's your very favorite historical figure.

 

Dzhugashvili

[ivan]

 

Dzhugashvili

gesundheit!

[Peter_Puget]

[billcoe]

SOMEWUNZ WENT GREEN !!!!MOAR GREEN JOBZ!

 

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

 

Aug 30, 2010 - 03:06am PT

The rally was just a public service announcement that the republican party is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Koch Industries and the oil industry.

 

They should be supportive in a George Soros kind of way? Big money every which direction. Anyway, you can relax, there's a lot less whining since the Kochs got their tax rates down.

[prole]

 

And some people complain that Obama's "too black"...

[JayB]

Someone post a photo of the racist who posted this screed, pronto:

 

"Here is something I have learned the hard way, but which a lot of well-meaning people in the West have a hard time accepting: All human beings are equal, but all cultures and religions are not. A culture that celebrates femininity and considers women to be the masters of their own lives is better than a culture that mutilates girls’ genitals and confines them behind walls and veils or flogs and stones them for falling in love. . . . The culture of the Western Enlightenment is better."

 

 

[billcoe]

 

And some people complain that Obama's "too black"...

 

I frequently hear that he's just like the last President.

 

 

of course, it could be that the bicycles are different brands.

 

 

[prole]

The rednecks will defend you, Jay!

 

Fire at site of future Tenn. mosque troubles city

By LUCAS L. JOHNSON II and TRAVIS LOLLER, Associated Press Writers Lucas L. Johnson Ii And Travis Loller, Associated Press Writers 56 mins ago

 

MURFREESBORO, Tenn. – A suspicious fire that damaged construction equipment at the site of a future mosque in Tennessee has some local Muslims worried that their local project has been dragged into the national debate surrounding Manhattan's ground zero.

 

Authorities told leaders of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro that four pieces of heavy construction equipment on the site were doused with an accelerant and one set ablaze early Saturday morning. The site is now being patrolled at all hours by the sheriff's department.

 

Federal investigators have not ruled it arson, saying only that the fire was being probed and asked the public to call in tips. Eric Kehn, spokesman for the Nashville office of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said arson is suspected.

 

The site has already seen vandalism, said Joel Siskovic, a spokesman for the FBI in the Memphis office. A sign at the site was spray-painted with the words "Not Welcome" and then torn in half. The FBI is investigating the fire in case it is a civil rights violation.

 

"We want to make sure there are not people acting with the intent to prevent people from exercising their First Amendment rights," Siskovic said.

 

Essam Fathy, chairman of the planning committee for the mosque, said he has lived in the city about 25 miles southeast of Nashville for almost 30 years and has never run into problems with his faith until now. He's concerned that outsiders could be involved.

 

"I don't think this is coming out of Murfreesboro," he said. "There were no issues at any time, even after 9/11, there were no issues. It just seems like there's a movement in the United States against Islam."

 

The debate in New York over a proposed Islamic community center and mosque two blocks away from ground zero has pitted advocates for religious freedom, including New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and President Barack Obama, against opponents who think it is insensitive to the victims of the terror attacks.

 

Supporters of the Tennessee mosque and some leaders in other faiths hope the fire could be a wake-up call to support religious freedom.

 

Two years ago, several men broke into the Islamic Center of Columbia, about 30 miles southwest of Murfreesboro, and torched it with molotov cocktails, stealing a stereo system and painting swastikas and "White Power" on the front of the building.

 

In some ways, the Muslim community in Columbia has emerged stronger than ever. After being welcomed at a local Presbyterian church for a few months, the group bought a new building with the support of people of many faiths from across Tennessee and across the country, Daoud Abudiab said.

 

But the firebombing affected him, and others, in ways that are harder to see.

 

"Every night, after that incident, I've activated the alarm at my house," he said. "Every night I arm it and I think of that incident and I think of my kids."

 

A candlelight vigil was planned Monday night in support of the Murfreesboro project by the group Middle Tennesseans for Religious Freedom, or MT4RF.

 

The group formed earlier this year to show support for the new mosque and Murfreesboro's Muslim community. Group leaders previously organized a counter-protest when mosque opponents marched on the courthouse in July demanding approval for the new mosque be rescinded.

 

"This definitely shakes up the community," spokeswoman Claire Rogers said. "These actions are not encouraged by any member of this community. This simply portrays us in such a negative light."

 

Some opponents of the mosque said they were concerned about how the project went through the city planning process and increased traffic. But many of the opponents at a recent rally expressed a fear that Muslims want to overthrow the government and bring Islamic law to the U.S.

 

Kevin Fisher, organizer of a July demonstration and petition drive against the mosque said he is opposed to any type of violence. But he wants to wait for the investigation of the fire before concluding that it was set by a mosque opponent.

[rob]

 

I'm pretty sure that's a Ladies bike.

[olyclimber]

interesting news article

[JayB]

The rednecks will defend you, Jay!

 

 

Yes - the author is my favorite Redneck.

 

 

What does *she* know about Islam, anyway?

 

BTW - here's the deal. You can build any church you want, anywhere it's legal to do so. That's your right under the constitution.

 

The same set of rules that gives you the right to do so gives me the the right to explain precisely why I find the set of beliefs encompassed in your religion - which you have chosen to adopt and abide by - repulsive. Ditto for the legal-framework which incorporates them, ditto for the full set of cultural traditions that it shelters from scrutiny, criticism, or reform.

 

 

 

[sobo]

Her book, Infidel, was fabulous. I suggest that all of you give it a read. Time well spent.

[prole]

BTW - here's the deal. You can build any church you want, anywhere it's legal to do so. That's your right under the constitution.

 

The same set of rules that gives you the right to do so gives me the the right to explain precisely why I find the set of beliefs encompassed in your religion - which you have chosen to adopt and abide by - repulsive. Ditto for the legal-framework which incorporates them, ditto for the full set of cultural traditions that it shelters from scrutiny, criticism, or reform.

 

 

Glad to see you're on board. Given the real context of the conversation (there's that reality-stuff again), it would seem that now would be a good time to emphasize the tolerance part and leave your "repulsion" and "they're coming for white clits!" talk for later on. Unless your intention really is to come off like a bigot that really doesn't want the mosque built and is willing to stoke general fear and hatred for specific activities while championing the moral high ground. A hollow "tolerance" that's actually devoid of any difference.

 

Edited August 30, 2010 by prole

[el jefe]

SOMEWUNZ WENT GREEN !!!!MOAR GREEN JOBZ!

 

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

 

Aug 30, 2010 - 03:06am PT

The rally was just a public service announcement that the republican party is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Koch Industries and the oil industry.

 

They should be supportive in a George Soros kind of way? Big money every which direction. Anyway, you can relax, there's a lot less whining since the Kochs got their tax rates down.

 

"Soros is a publicity hound who is transparent about where he shovels his money. And like many liberals — selflessly or foolishly, depending on your point of view — he supports causes that are unrelated to his business interests and that, if anything, raise his taxes" -- this from Frank Rich's article in last sunday's NY Times. the krotch bros., on the other hand, spend money bankrolling the dimwit teabaggers precisely because it benefits their business interests. that's a pretty big difference, bill.

[Jim]

The rednecks will defend you, Jay!

 

 

Yes - the author is my favorite Redneck.

 

 

What does *she* know about Islam, anyway?

 

BTW - here's the deal. You can build any church you want, anywhere it's legal to do so. That's your right under the constitution.

 

The same set of rules that gives you the right to do so gives me the the right to explain precisely why I find the set of beliefs encompassed in your religion - which you have chosen to adopt and abide by - repulsive. Ditto for the legal-framework which incorporates them, ditto for the full set of cultural traditions that it shelters from scrutiny, criticism, or reform.

 

 

 

One of her books - Infidel - was very interesting and quite clear on how women are subjugated in the Muslim faith - at least the way it is practiced in Africa and the Middle East. But I don't think it has anything to do with building an Islamic center a few blocks from ground zero, which is futher away than a couple strip joints.

[JayB]

BTW - here's the deal. You can build any church you want, anywhere it's legal to do so. That's your right under the constitution.

 

The same set of rules that gives you the right to do so gives me the the right to explain precisely why I find the set of beliefs encompassed in your religion - which you have chosen to adopt and abide by - repulsive. Ditto for the legal-framework which incorporates them, ditto for the full set of cultural traditions that it shelters from scrutiny, criticism, or reform.

 

 

Glad to see you're on board. Given the real context of the conversation (there's that reality-stuff again), it would seem that now would be a good time to emphasize the tolerance part and leave your "repulsion" and "they're coming for white clits!" talk for later on. Unless your intention really is to come off like a bigot that really doesn't want the mosque built and is willing to stoke general fear and hatred for specific activities while championing the moral high ground. A hollow "tolerance" that's actually devoid of any difference.

 

Tolerance = recognizing their legal right to build a mosque wherever it's legal to do so. That's it. Uncritical indifference toward whatever absurd medieval barbarisms and the system of laws they gave rise to, much less the behaviors they give rise to isn't part of "tolerance."

 

Amazingly enough, there are a few people on the political left who risk being disinvited from untold numbers of hemp-only quilting circles and backyard-egg collectives by voicing similar sentiments in public:

 

"I am an atheist with an affinity for non-fundamentalist religious believers whose faith has made room for secular knowledge. I am also a political liberal. I am not, however, a multiculturalist who believes that all cultures and religions are equally worthy of respect. And I find myself in a lonely place in relation to many liberals, political and religious, because I cannot accept a multiculturalism that tends to excuse, under the rubric of “tolerance,” religious and cultural practices that violate universal human rights."

 

http://www.bigquestionsonline.com/columns/susan-jacoby/multiculturalism-and-its-discontents

 

[JayB]

This from another noted redneck:

 

"Silence is not moderation

 

In a recent Wall Street Journal article, terrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann said that anti-Muslim rhetoric in America is bad news for anti-terrorism efforts: "We are handing al Qaeda a propaganda coup, an absolute propaganda coup."

 

By many accounts, the man who could blunt the power of that coup is Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the religious leader behind the planned Islamic Center near Ground Zero. The imam has been surprisingly mum on the issue while he travels in the Middle East. What message of faith could he offer to Muslims and non-Muslims alike that could turn this moment of division into a time of healing?

 

As many have pointed out, the controversy over the "ground zero mosque" is a false one. The project is legal to build, and it should remain legal. That does not mean, however, that any concern about building a mosque so close to ground zero is synonymous with bigotry. The true scandal here is that Muslim moderates have been so abysmally lacking in candor about the nature of their faith and so slow to disavow its genuine (and growing) pathologies--leading perfectly sane and tolerant people to worry whether Muslim moderation even exists.

 

Despite his past equivocations on this issue, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf could dispel these fears in a single paragraph:

 

"Like all decent people, I am horrified by much that goes on in the name of 'Islam,' and I consider it a duty of all moderate Muslims to recognize that many of the doctrines espoused in the Qur'an and hadith present some unique liabilities at this moment in history. Our traditional ideas about martyrdom, jihad, blasphemy, apostasy, and the status of women must be abandoned, as they are proving disastrous in the 21st century. Many of Islam's critics have fully justified concerns about the state of discourse in parts of the Muslim world--where it is a tissue of conspiracy theories, genocidal ravings regarding the Jews, and the most abject, triumphalist fantasies about conquering the world for the glory of Allah. While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith. Hence, we do not tend to see vast numbers of Jews and Christians calling for the murder of apostates today. This is not true of Islam, and there is simply no honest way of denying this shocking disparity. We are members of a faith community that appears more concerned about harmless cartoons than about the daily atrocities committed in its name--and no one suffers from this stupidity and barbarism more than our fellow Muslims. Islam must grow up. And Muslim moderates like ourselves must be the first to defend the rights of novelists, cartoonists, and public intellectuals to criticize all religious faiths, including our own."

 

These are the sorts of sentiments that should be the litmus test for Muslim moderation. Find an imam who will speak this way, and gather followers who think this way, and I'll volunteer to cut the ribbon on his mosque in lower Manhattan.

 

Sam Harris"

 

Amen.

[prole]

Tolerance = recognizing their legal right to build a mosque wherever it's legal to do so. That's it. Uncritical indifference toward whatever absurd medieval barbarisms and the system of laws they gave rise to, much less the behaviors they give rise to isn't part of "tolerance."

 

Amazingly enough, there are a few people on the political left who risk being disinvited from untold numbers of hemp-only quilting circles and backyard-egg collectives by voicing similar sentiments in public:

 

"I am an atheist with an affinity for non-fundamentalist religious believers whose faith has made room for secular knowledge. I am also a political liberal. I am not, however, a multiculturalist who believes that all cultures and religions are equally worthy of respect. And I find myself in a lonely place in relation to many liberals, political and religious, because I cannot accept a multiculturalism that tends to excuse, under the rubric of “tolerance,” religious and cultural practices that violate universal human rights."

 

http://www.bigquestionsonline.com/columns/susan-jacoby/multiculturalism-and-its-discontents

 

The truth of the above statements are not what's at issue. It's your timing. But we're used to tolerating you being an asshole.

Edited August 31, 2010 by prole

[JosephH]

Christianity and christians would be right next to Islam and muslims in any statement I was willing to sign onto. Given the relentless christian geonicide of aboriginal cultures around the world with much of it still hard at work today in other guises.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

we're used to tolerating you being an asshole.

 

:lmao:

[prole]

Lick sack.

[JayB]

Christianity and christians would be right next to Islam and muslims in any statement I was willing to sign onto. Given the relentless christian geonicide of aboriginal cultures around the world with much of it still hard at work today in other guises.

 

Amazing, it's as though you were speaking directly to Sam Harris...

 

"...honest reasoning declares that there is much that is objectionable—and, frankly, terrifying—about the religion of Islam and about the state of discourse among Muslims living in the West, and it is decidedly inconvenient that discussing these facts publicly is considered a sign of “intolerance” by well-intentioned liberals, in part because such criticism resonates with the actual bigotry of not-so-well-intentioned conservatives. I can see no remedy for this, however, apart from simply ramming the crucial points home, again and again.

 

The first thing that all honest students of Islam must admit is that it is not absolutely clear where members of al Qaeda, the Taliban, al-Shabab, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Hamas, and other Muslim terrorist groups have misconstrued their religious obligations. If they are “extremists” who have deformed an ancient faith into a death cult, they haven’t deformed it by much. When one reads the Koran and the hadith, and consults the opinions of Muslim jurists over the centuries, one discovers that killing apostates, treating women like livestock, and waging jihad—not merely as an inner, spiritual struggle but as holy war against infidels—are practices that are central to the faith. Granted, one path out of this madness might be for mainstream Muslims to simply pretend that this isn’t so—and by this pretense persuade the next generation that the “true” Islam is peaceful, tolerant of difference, egalitarian, and fully compatible with a global civil society. But the holy books remain forever to be consulted, and no one will dare to edit them. Consequently, the most barbarous and divisive passages in these texts will remain forever open to being given their most plausible interpretations.

 

Thus, when Allah commands his followers to slay infidels wherever they find them, until Islam reigns supreme (2:191-193; 4:76; 8:39; 9:123; 47:4; 66:9)—only to emphasize that such violent conquest is obligatory, as unpleasant as that might seem (2:216), and that death in jihad is actually the best thing that can happen to a person, given the rewards that martyrs receive in Paradise (3:140-171; 4:74; 47:5-6)—He means just that. And, being the creator of the universe, his words were meant to guide Muslims for all time. Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today. Anyone who elides these distinctions, or who acknowledges the problem of jihad and Muslim terrorism only to swiftly mention the Crusades, Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, the Tamil Tigers, and the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma, is simply not thinking honestly about the problem of Islam."

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-13/ground-zero-mosque/