Sport vs Trad

[skykilo]

^^That seems like a sincere post from Raindawg with no vitriol. Bravo.

 

As far as what some "big stud" climbers do and how that affects these bolting debates: it shouldn't matter at all, right? Would you want kids who play basketball and football to emulate a lot of the superstars in the NFL and NBA!?

 

Retro 'd

[JosephH]

unstressful

I agree.

 

I'll also comment that the PNW is filled with folks for whom alpine is their real deal and clearly lots of them are ambivalent about the rest of it when they aren't in the mountains. Also, I noted over the decades of being here that more than a few alpine guys are balls out friggin' crazy when they get on rock - they take lots of big risks that don't always seem well-advised, place some pretty scary gear, and style points are pretty much irrelevant from the get go. That in no way is an across-the-board observation or generalization of all alpine folks - just a higher percentage of scary sketch than you run into with crag-only free climbers in venues like an Eldo or Gunks.

[kevbone]

Punk, punk, punk, punk.

[StevenSeagal]

unstressful

I agree.

 

I'll also comment that the PNW is filled with folks for whom alpine is their real deal and clearly lots of them are ambivalent about the rest of it when they aren't in the mountainsalso noted over the decades of being here that more than a few alpine guys are balls out friggin' crazy when they get on rock - they take lots of big risks that don't always seem well-advised, place some pretty scary gear, and style points are pretty much irrelevant from the get go. That in no way is an across-the-board observation or generalization of all alpine folks - just a higher percentage of scary sketch than you run into with crag-only free climbers in venues like an Eldo or Gunks.

 

Thanks JH- good post

 

Conversely I see an equally proportional number of "crag only" climbers, particularly Coloradoans and Californicators, doing comparatively sketchy shit when they try to take it alpine.

[StevenSeagal]

Punk, punk, punk, punk.

 

:ass: :ass:

stfu stfu stfu stfu

[JosephH]

Conversely I see an equally proportional number of "crag only" climbers, particularly Coloradoans and Californicators, doing comparatively sketchy shit when they try to take it alpine.

 

I believe that. Seems like Mt. Hood by itself is a good example of a place where the '85% rule' does actually rule - that anyone can get up it so long as nothing bad happens; but if something bad does happen, then only about 15% or less of the total folks would have a remote clue as to what to do or how to behave.

[ivan]

dawg, are you sure your mangina isn't acting up? while this particular post IS a personal attack, my previous one, which despite rewording KK's joke conceded yours could well be the best view of bolting, was hardly a "personal attack on your profession" - such an attack would have more along the lines of "archaeologists are cock-sucking grave robbers, and you are clearly the big-bull-cock-sucker of them all" - i thought i was being all considerate and what not, but maybe my wife is right?

 

at any rate, seeing that i majored in history, teach social studies, took a number of archeology and anthropology classes at uva (founded by the man who was america's first archeologist no less)and have been to practically every damn natural history museum in the western world 'cuz i'm a geek and actually interested in that shit, i think i have at least an inkling of "a clue" - mind you, i'm not saying i could tell the difference from hieratic or hieroglyphic writing or pontificate widely on egyptian history before and after the hyksos invasions, but i do know slightly more about egypt and archeology than what i saw in "stargate" and "raiders"

[billcoe]

Based on his response I don't think he read what I was referring too. As always, basking in your wit and intelligence Ivan. PS, stop scaring 5 Ks.

 

Regards

 

Bill

 

Did someone say Dawg?

 

[JosephH]

Ok Bill, now you're really scaring me...

[Bug]

not having a spine is really killing my back right now

Sorry Porter.

Just have to spray since we are in spray. So you get the point.

Its really not that big of a deal tho right?

[Bug]

You have to print very clearly on this site or too many people will not be able to read it.

No dramatic effect intended.

But this is spray so no matter what we post, some one will call you names.

 

You are good at spray.

 

 

[olyclimber]

i'm fairly certain this thread would have been no different had i left it were it was.

 

sometimes when you beat a dead horse you discover new things about how the blows to the dead horse carcass impact the flesh, which might be valuable in the medical world in saving human (or horse) life. this is valuable dead horse beating research.

[Pete_H]

The saga continues ...

 

[pope]

First, foster more than a casual awareness of the player you posit upon, play jazz in an ensemble steady for a few years, re-read your statement then, wait for it.

 

Your small appliance light bulb may burn a shine of cognition.

 

So you're a Kenny G fan. I hear he can play not only while blowing, but also while sucking. Sucking and blowing, blowing and sucking. A natural candidate for the next sport climbing sensation.

[pope]

"Bolting restraint is appropriate as long as it's not in my backyard."

 

...so tell me what area here, that is bolted, compares in your eyes to the grandeur that is j tree, and secondly, what area here is visually impacted even nearly as much as j tree? (white chalk on brown rock, shiny bolts contrasting heavily with brown rock....)

 

Oh, so shiny bolts don't look so nice against brown, and we ain't gots no brown rocks in Kimmo's backyard. So Kimmo, who has a sense for collaboratin' colors like nobody I know, says them shiny bolts go just fine with what we got 'round here.

 

How convenient. I have news for you, Kimmo. Ugly bolts is ugly bolts. Ugly knows no color. Most of what's ugly about 'em is the story they tell about how rock climbing has devolved since Alan Watts and Christian Griffith convinced little pud pounders like you that climbing 5.13 after having all the answers handed to you while hanging off a bolt was somehow better than what was happenin' here already.

 

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Ugly bolts is ugly bolts. Ugly knows no color. Most of what's ugly about 'em is the story they tell about how rock climbing has devolved since Alan Watts and Christian Griffith convinced little pud pounders like you that climbing 5.13 after having all the answers handed to you while hanging off a bolt was somehow better than what was happenin' here already.

 

 

 

 

[Bug]

i'm fairly certain this thread would have been no different had i left it were it was.

 

sometimes when you beat a dead horse you discover new things about how the blows to the dead horse carcass impact the flesh, which might be valuable in the medical world in saving human (or horse) life. this is valuable dead horse beating research.

This dead horse is going to get up and gallop on your face someday.

The inevitable outcome of unlimited development of permanent anything, is government intervention.

 

[JosephH]

[Off_White]

That's a little ambiguous Joe, are you the one wearing the halo and you're feeling disparaged? Is it you talking to people who clip bolts? Or are you drifting to target evangelical christians?

 

I posted that cover awhile back because the tone of the title, I'm Okay and You're Not, is what often infects these debates. It's usually the anti bolt crowd who trots out that attitude, your assertion as to what is "real climbing" and what isn't is a prime example. What you do is okay, but what others do isn't. Climbing is only what you define it as. I'm completely fine with your style or Raindawgs admirable attachment to low impact climbing. But anyone who stands up to declare "what I do is pure and righteous and most of the rest of you are degenerates defiling all that is sacred" will find people tend to respond with a whole bucket of Fuck You. And voila, we're off, with name calling all around and another thread moved to Spray.

 

It's the holier than thou dismissive tone that almost always cloak these anti bolt diatribes that drive the style of the interaction. As Peter Puget aptly pointed out, it's embedded in terms selected. Sport vs Trad? What, is this a wrestling match? You mentioned that like you, I'm old enough to remember when people just called it "climbing." Actually, I still call it that, the whole ball of wax, and I don't consider myself one "type" of climber or another. I think there are a lot of other people who feel the same.

[JosephH]

Again, from my perspective it's like someone objecting to the slaughter of the buffalo in 1850 - clearly a lunatic, what could possibly be the problem; in fact it's good for America. Again, sport is climbing in exactly the way via ferattas are - total dependence on fixed pro. What percentage reduction in those climber demographics would there be if all the cables and bolts disappeared tomorrow and the only way of climbing was self-reliance on gear? And just how many bolts do you think go in every year in the US to feed new sport routes to folks wholly dependent on bolts? Or do you think some day new sport routes will just stop going in, the demand sated? No, we we both know the answer to that is they'll never stop; it's going to be bolting without end, crag after crag - please, do try and convince me that isn't the reality...

 

Again, don't feel obliged to answer those - we've been flogging this dead, stripped buffalo carcass for some time now...

 

 

P.S. That isn't a halo, it's a bolt...

[el jefe]

"Sport climbing is the only way to get strong, and that justifies our trail of trash."

 

 

What would Johnny say?

 

he would say "hey look. I can pink point anything"!

 

 

You should research the history behind this climb:

 

father figure at joshua tree. scott cosgrove route. bachar worked it, redpointed it, then soloed it after getting it dialed. straightup sporto method to get to the soloing bit.

[el jefe]

That's a little ambiguous Joe, are you the one wearing the halo and you're feeling disparaged? Is it you talking to people who clip bolts? Or are you drifting to target evangelical christians?

 

I posted that cover awhile back because the tone of the title, I'm Okay and You're Not, is what often infects these debates. It's usually the anti bolt crowd who trots out that attitude, your assertion as to what is "real climbing" and what isn't is a prime example. What you do is okay, but what others do isn't. Climbing is only what you define it as. I'm completely fine with your style or Raindawgs admirable attachment to low impact climbing. But anyone who stands up to declare "what I do is pure and righteous and most of the rest of you are degenerates defiling all that is sacred" will find people tend to respond with a whole bucket of Fuck You. And voila, we're off, with name calling all around and another thread moved to Spray.

 

It's the holier than thou dismissive tone that almost always cloak these anti bolt diatribes that drive the style of the interaction. As Peter Puget aptly pointed out, it's embedded in terms selected. Sport vs Trad? What, is this a wrestling match? You mentioned that like you, I'm old enough to remember when people just called it "climbing." Actually, I still call it that, the whole ball of wax, and I don't consider myself one "type" of climber or another. I think there are a lot of other people who feel the same.

 

this pretty much nails it. if raindawg were really interested in changing minds or getting people to think seriously about his ideas, he'd adopt a different tactic. getting up on the podium and self-righteously haranguing everyone, however, is probably the best way to drive everyone onto the other camp.

[JosephH]

... is probably the best way to drive everyone onto the other camp.

 

No haranguing required, pretty much everyone is already in the other camp. Personally, I'm not trying to sway a soul, just pointing out how powerful the self-reinforcing group-think of the vast majority really is. Sort of like trying to convince commercial fishermen we might be overfishing the resource. And again, for me it boils down to that 'climbing' vs. 'adventure climbing' deal.

[mattp]

I think “the other camp” is a mysnomer here. What is “the other camp?” Is it a bunch of people who advocate indiscriminate bolting of every rock in sight regardless of any rational need for bolts? Do these people exist?

 

To be sure, one could argue that “times have changed” or “I don’t need or want bolts the way YOU GUYS do” but is there an “other camp?” It appears that anybody who doesn’t share the same paradigm as these few posters who identify themselves as the "clean climbing warriors" or whatever is the correct creed must be in “the other camp.” Whether you are a new climber who admits they have insufficient experience to form an informed opinion on these matters, a seasoned old guy who really doesn’t care, a honed athlete who is training for the really hard stuff, or maybe even one of those guys who is actually installing bolts and thinks about whether they are doing right by the Earth or not, you are in “the other camp.” Are thees people in "the same camp?" Really?

 

Off is right. The fundamental structure of these discussions is weird to begin with.

 

 

Having said that, I see some wisdom in the message from our esteemed friend Bug, too. If bolting or for that matter any other practice employed by our user group becomes visually or geographically dominant it is likely to reach a threshold point where a response from land managers or some other group with an interest in these matters will follow. Thus far, the big reactions have been largely focused on impacts both more visually and geographically prominent than bolts: yes, bolts have been a cause for concern and anybody who has been climbing very long remembers the "fixed anchor ban" or press releases concerning climbers busted for using power drills in Wilderness areas. All of us have participated in discussions like this one dozens of times or more. But on a daily basis the concerns raised by non-climbers at least as often involve parked cars and people, or visual imipacts associated with chalk and rappel slings. The fact that bolts are more permanent than the visual blight caused by washed out approach trails or discarded athletic tape is a reality, but the bottom line in any “response” from land managers or any other group with an interest in these matters is based on the measure of our impact on whatever their concerns may be, and climbing "ethics" is usually relatively low on their list of concerns after visual impact, trash, sanitation, erosion, wildlife management, and user-conflicts.

 

For the most part, our ethical concerns are of most interest to climbers and less of interest to land mangers or conservation groups or other recreational users unless, as in the case of bolts, they see limiting bolts as a way to limit climber numbers and the broader impact that is associated with a popular climb or climbing area. As an example, I'm pretty sure that the land managers in Leavenworth are just as worried about how to handle the climbing traffic on Outer Space as they are Condomorphamine Addiction. In our discussions here on cc.com, however, you might get the impression that Outer Space was a shrine while Condomorphamine was some kind of blight. There may be some basis for this, but to the extent that you think there is a basis that "truth" is of interest to climbers and not to non-climbers.

[Kimmo]

Oh, so shiny bolts don't look so nice against brown, and we ain't gots no brown rocks in Kimmo's backyard. So Kimmo, who has a sense for collaboratin' colors like nobody I know, says them shiny bolts go just fine with what we got 'round here.

 

How convenient. I have news for you, Kimmo. Ugly bolts is ugly bolts. Ugly knows no color. Most of what's ugly about 'em is the story they tell about how rock climbing has devolved since Alan Watts and Christian Griffith convinced little pud pounders like you that climbing 5.13 after having all the answers handed to you while hanging off a bolt was somehow better than what was happenin' here already.

 

firstly i'd like to thank you for the compliments concerning my aesthetics; i consider your opinion an advance in your evolution.

 

secondly, i'd like to report on my progress today. i put a bolt above the crux, which definitely made it easier to work out. damn it's good! overhanging, with two slopey pinches and a heel-hook. trick is controlling the heel to a toe, then a controlled dyno to a high sloper right hand. actually hit the hold today! put the anchors in too, so the whole rig is ready to roll. 13c to an ok rest to a v11 boulder problem. as siked as i've ever been. just like UW rock like the old days, eh eric?

 

have fun! love, kimmo