Washington Climbers

[AlpineMonkey]

Here is something for disscussion:

 

I got my first American Alpine Journal today in the mail and think it's the neatest thing ever. It will be what I am reading in my free time for the next couple of weeks. I can't believe or even imagine people doing some of the lines I see in there; there are some unbelievable climbers out there.

 

I flipped to the Washington Section and it states that "Washington continues to see overal wilderness usage decrease..." and that "climbers are making fewer extended wilderness outtings." Also, "climber’s attention focuses on select guidebooks and internet disscusions."

 

I will be thinking about these statments all day at work probably. I hope this dissucsion attracts some thoughtful responses and debate. I could be wrong, but this is what I think...

 

I think there could be overall usage decreasse of Washington's wilderness by general users, but I think the same climbers that have always been cranking hard are still cranking hard. I believe these surveys have come from filling out those trail passes at trailheads and I don't know one serious climber that has ever filled one out, including myself. With the advent of internet discussions, we hear about a "select" few climbers and I believe it creates a false bias of Washington activity. We are all only reading about the same climbers time after time again, when the majority of climbers who aren't on this board and aren't posting it up in the journals are getting at it hard. If you look at all the NWMJ's for example, it’s always the same people time and a time again. It is an awsome publication (and I'm not implying anything bad about it) but it is more of a journal of a select younger few who choose to post.

 

As for climbers now only focusing on select climbs (ie Jim Nelson books), I believe again that’s not true. I don't know how many Dragontail, Prusik, and Stuart reports I've read on here, quite a bit, but again it’s just the few who are posting it up. My backing behind this thought comes directly from "the field." I have been getting out every single weekend and doing many of the unclassic and not selected climbs and I find an abundance of evidence, like new webbing, on these climbs. Also this year I tried a line that I thought haden't seen a repeat. Then later found out that at least 3 other parties had done the route. I know one older generation climber who still gets out for a couple months each summer (litteraly taking full weeks off at a time to do routes) and he dosen't have an email, dosen't know how to use the internet, and is so computer illeterate he had to hand write a letter and then have his sister type it up on the computer for him for his work.

 

I think we shouldn't come to conclusions that cascadeclimbers and journals completly repersent the Washington climbing sene. There is a lot more going on that you (and I) don’t here about.

 

 

Sorry if my writting is choppy, I was just going off the top of my head here. I'm curios to think about what others think.

[AlpineMonkey]

It would be awsome of those of us with connections to the older generations (the not so internet savvy or perhaps not so internet willing...) could talk to them and get their reports so next year we can have a more complete and accurate picture of whats really happening in Washington. I believe there is much more happening out their and I am willing to do my part next year to get this information out there from the few I know who are still hitting it up. I would like to see a lot more in there then practically 2 asccents by the same person who chose to write.

[Raindawg]

...I think we shouldn't come to conclusions that cascadeclimbers and journals completly repersent the Washington climbing sene. There is a lot more going on that you (and I) don’t here about...I would like to see a lot more in there then practically 2 asccents by the same person who chose to write.

 

Could be lots of reasons including that there really is not much new going on worth reporting in Washington;

or that some people doing new stuff are climbing for there own reasons apart from promoting their own efforts;

or maybe they don't want to kill the adventure by spraying beta all over a journal, guidebook or the internet.

[dberdinka]

Albeit having not seen the AAJ it sounds like the author had a fair bit of sand in their vah-jay-jay. Who was it?

 

It's an excellent question: How much is going on in the realm of new routes or notable repeats in the Cascades that does not get sprayed about on the internet? Do reports on CC.com equal 90% of the total or 50% or 10%?

 

While CC.com might be populated by only a small segment of the general climbing community one would hope that the NWMJ would have broader appeal and would hence receive info from more folks. I mean come on it's in part created and maintained by the mountaineers. Yet the new route info there is not substantially different from what one finds on CC.com. I can think of one major FA this summer that went down in the pickets by one of these "older generation" climbers, but I've seen it mentioned on Alpinist already and I'm sure it will show up in the NWMJ potentially as a whole article.

 

Furthermore having got a peek at the rough draft of the next edition of the Red Cascade Alpine Guide there does not appear to be any (or at least very few) new routes that haven't been sprayed about online. Is Fred part of the online spraybot crowd mysteriously insulated from all the active older generation hardmen?

 

Ah but yes regardless you should definitely provide a bridge for information between the more reclusive climbers out there and the rest of us glued to our computer screens. I'. really curious to know what else is going on!

[John Frieh]

It's an excellent question: How much is going on in the realm of new routes or notable repeats in the Cascades that does not get sprayed about on the internet? Do reports on CC.com equal 90% of the total or 50% or 10%?

 

50% or less I'd guess. Hard to truly gauge how much goes on that one doesnt know/hear about...

 

And I dont think it's just the older gen that chooses to not post here... look at some of the younger gen that is also out crushing but not spraying

[mattp]

I was the one who wrote the summary, Darin. It wasn't out of any sense of real disdain or criticism, however: I got my information from climbers, guides, rangers, and my own observations. And yes: the Internet. Depending on where you come from and where you want to go, there is good and bad in the trends I described.

[Rad]

As a one-time editor of NWMJ, I can say that the leads for the short reports come straight from CC TRs plus those that the editors know about. Mr. Monkey, if you know people who are doing FAs that would be a good fit for the journal I am sure Lowell would be glad to hear about them and would take them seriously.

 

For those of you who claim large numbers of FAs that are not reported on CC, what evidence to you have to back up your claim (Mr. Monkey claims new slings)?

 

I was just having a conversation yesterday with someone about how many WA people climb >=5.10 in the back country/mountains (let's say >3 miles from the nearest road). 50? 500? 5000? What fraction of these people are doing FAs? How many of them post on CC? It would be interesting to know.

 

If climbers were perceived as a significant user group for park/wilderness/forest resources, and they were organized, they might stand a better chance of getting their voices heard at policy time. MattP can certainly comment on that.

[dberdinka]

Oops, MattP, someone I know. Well I hope you pass that kidney stone soon

 

 

I was just having a conversation yesterday with someone about how many WA people climb >=5.10 in the back country/mountains (let's say >3 miles from the nearest road). 50? 500? 5000?

 

Hey. I think I was having that same discussion with that same person. He was claiming 5000+. I was thinking like a couple hundred tops.

 

If you look at peaks with summit registers, which begs the question what percentage of climbers sign summit registers? I would think a majority of climbers sign summit registers including the internet illiterate ones.

 

When GeneP and I climbed the Kearney Route on the NE Buttress of Castle Peak in 2005 we were the only party in the summit register to have climbed it since the register had been placed in 1999. (The peak apparently only sees ~1 ascent a year) Kearneys guidebook had already been published for 3-4 years I think, implying we were the first party to go do what looked like a brilliant climb? I was a bit surprised.

 

In 2006 when I climbed Nooksack Tower in late season (end of August) we were the only entry for the year. The previous two entries were by climbers who posted TRs of those climbs on CC.com

 

My point being, with the exception of a handful of very, very popular routes there seems to be very little traffic on what are very well known but "difficult" routes.

[Choada_Boy]

For every Serpentine Arete TR, there are approximately zero Nooksack Tower TRs.

[AlpineMonkey]

Like I said ealyer, I could be wrong. It's just how I feel from what I see and know (which could be very little). I'm not trying to set myself up here for people to say what backing do you have etc..., but I am sure more people then this Blake guy climb in Washington. Maybe other's aren't doing new routes out there and I just think they are, I don't know. But I know Pete D. has done a lot of new routes every year (including this one...), but they might be insignificant stuff...and what about Bryan B., I don't really see his name coming up ever and he is also obbseivly active. There is one or two sentences about some "little" grade IV 5.11 route that he did. Those are just two people that I know of who are extremly active. I'm feel like there must be others. Just wanted to see what other people thought.

 

Even if it includes writting a letter to these peoples it would be awsome to get them to submit. It's all history in the end and once it's lost its gone for good.

[mattp]

There have always been some people who choose not to publish their climbs,and for a variety of reasons. Some people are shy; others may be secretive for competitive reasons or because they may think that publication can only bring impact to an area. Personal attacks over style or sandbagging or whatever can drive people underground. There was a fashion for NOT publicizing climbs in the 1980's, but I don't hear much talk about that any more.

 

On balance, I think we are finding out about more new routes and faster than we used to -- at least with regard mountain routes. However, while collecting information for the NWMJ each year I have made phone calls and sent direct inquiry to guides or friends of friends or whomever and there have always been routes that didn't appear on cc.com and some where they said "yes, I did a route on __________, but I'm not publishing it."

[olyclimber]

well i'm pretty sure a Venn diagram would explain the situation best.

 

its true the CC.com is does not capture all (and perhaps even "much") of the new activity. I note that people such are Peter D. were accomplished climbers well before the Internet.

 

In the end it *does* speak about why you climb whether you share the experience or not. And the venue you share it in matters too. For example, if you're angling for a sponsorship, it pays to get your name in the top rags. It gets your noticed and taken seriously by people who make decisions about who is sponsored and who is not. You can make fun of people who do this, but it is a totally proven method of getting sponsorship. Often, if you are already a sponsored climber, then this is how the sponsor choose to do the Press release, so you might not hear about it officially through any other medium (except for the AAJ or NWMJ, which specialize as "mediums of record").

 

A "step down" from this is posting in on the AAJ. How long has the AAJ been out? The difference is that the AAJ is only published one a year, so if you're looking for sponsorship then you better be prepared for the long road. If you're not looking for sponsorship, but just enjoy climbing new routes, but at the same time don't enjoy the internets and its associated sprayfest, then the AAJ is a great choice if you want to share the information for some reason. I would also put the NWMJ in the same group, though I know that they specifically have a slightly different focus than the AAJ as well as a different frequency. I love reading the AAJ and NWMJ, they are both great publications, I especially like looking back at old AAJs.

 

Next is posting a TR online at a place CC.com (or the various other internet sites). CC.com really focused on the PNW, so that is even a further step down, really. If you like reading CC.com TRs, then you can see how lucky we are the people do this!!! Without people "spraying" about their climb, you have NOTHING to read. I LOVE reading TRs. That why I came to cc.com in the first place. And if the TR is an FA, all the better. But if you don't like beta, or you think that all climbing should be a personal affair, you don't need to come here. Also I can understand some people might be put off by some of the spray, but others come here because it is what it is.

 

Finally, you can just choose to keep the your climbing to yourself and not tell anyone but perhaps friends and family. I think this is fine too! It's not me, I see the value in sharing the hype, beta, and motivation. But there is nothing wrong with this choice either. I'm sure it includes lots of great climbers, even sponsored ones, and we hear about them only because their sponsors want us to know the route got sent with their gear.

 

In the end you either choose to "spray" about your climb through your chosen medium, or you don't. I would bet that people report their climbs to some form of media at least 75 percent if it is a significant new ascent. This number can change as reporting comes in and out of fashion. If it isn't significant the number drops WAY lower, because people just assume that it is not significant enough to report.

[tvashtarkatena]

Then there are some people who choose not to publish because they don't want to bother with writing and/or photography; they're just into the climbing itself. Not very mysterious, really.

[olyclimber]

i would add that the cool thing about CC.com (and sites like it) is that those who do share TRs not only share motivation, but also route beta, and some times even more importantly CURRENT conditions. It also gives a venue reports that don't merit an entry into a journal of record, or aren't a 5.14b crushfest...in short, routes that most of us can do.

[olyclimber]

Then there are some people who choose not to publish because they don't want to bother with writing and/or photography; they're just into the climbing itself. Not very mysterious, really.

 

DUDE! I already included that group. DUH! Reread my diatribe.

[tvashtarkatena]

I have trouble with word problems involving Venn diagrams.

[Alex]

Craig et al,

 

I think the decline in backcountry use, wilderness use, and the decline in climbing in general is very real in Washington, and was thinking about it the other day. If you lived almost *anywhere else*, there might be only climbing, or only some other activity, to pursue. But in Washington there is SO MUCH to do. So people naturally move on over time. One hint of what I'm talking about: look at the web pages of some of the well known the Internet Alpinists in recent years: myself, mvs, AlpineDave, Phil, sverdina, mikeadam, Alpine_Tom - lots of folks are starting to have trip reports that are like "Pacific Cup" or "kite-boarding in the Gorge" or "mountain biking near Olympia" or whatever. There is alot to do in Washington and not that many skilled alpinists, and even lifers do other things after a while.

 

I also think that alot of people are getting more dispersed and so harder to track, as the ease of information makes it easier to have a successful trip where before you pretty much just had to be unemployed and commit alot of time and alot of failure. The amount of info is astonishing, I'd say we're seeing the end of a time in our history where printed guidebooks have much of a role. The Internet, and sites like this and summitpost, make objectives harder to pick (so many!) but easier to succeed on once chosen.

 

Also, while I don't want to say the Cascades are climbed out, the range is actually pretty small and there are very few "hidden splitter granite alpine climbs" out there that can be done in a weekend, let alone that are new routes. Most climbers have jobs, and the Summers here are recently as short as the Summers in the Canadian Rockies, so having 4-6 weeks of stable weather to play with doesnt really raise the proability of listing off a long list of new routes every year.

 

Finally, I think climbers are mostly unrepresented on this board, and likely alot of them just climb standard routes. Those that do not either don't care to report their endevours, or do so through very traditional channels, like direct mail to Fred. That said, for those of you posting on this board, it's awesome! It's much easier to track whats going on for new routes (like, oh yeah that was on my list to try but Layton did it last year so let me move to the next thing on my list to try) as well as to get a glimpse into new areas likely not yet explored, through the pics that others have taken while on their own journeys.

[Braydon]

I was just talking a friend who put up a new 5.10a route on Forbidden this summer. I don't think he even has a cc.com acount.

[mike1]

Then there are some people who choose not to publish because they don't want to bother with writing and/or photography; they're just into the climbing itself. Not very mysterious, really.

Or we just want to keep our climbing experiences private.

[AlpineMonkey]

Alex, that makes sense. I see what your talking about.

 

One thing for sure though, is I see a decrease, or maybe a better word is a lack of emerging young alpine climbers in WA. I'm 23 and the only person my age I climb with is my fiancee. All others are people who are in there 30's, 40's,50's and sometimes even older. I never meet people on the trail or in the hills that our in there younger years (my age).

[Dannible]

Alex, that makes sense. I see what your talking about.

 

One thing for sure though, is I see a decrease, or maybe a better word is a lack of emerging young alpine climbers in WA. I'm 23 and the only person my age I climb with is my fiancee. All others are people who are in there 30's, 40's,50's and sometimes even older. I never meet people on the trail or in the hills that our in there younger years (my age).

 

I think a big part of that has to do with money. For people who go to school and have part time jobs or no job at all gear is bloody expensive. I've been building my rack for three or four years and still don't have doubles of cams in some sizes, and for really expensive stuff like plastic boots and skis I get the absolute cheapest used stuff I can, and still cringe at how much it costs. And now the price of gas is making it so I am much more selective about where and how often I go. I sold all of my winter gear this summer because I'm trying to get a business started that I hope will give me more time and money with which to climb in the future. I climb with a few people my age (I'm 21), but most of them don't have more than a harness, rope, shoes, and some draws. It comes down to priorities; some would rather have enough money to live more comfortably and spend their weekends partying or studying or whatever, and some of us go climbing instead. Compared to most non climbers I know I don't have much of a social life, but that's a choice I made.

 

I also think that a lot of people would like to climb, but don't know how to get started. A lot of people my age ask me to take them climbing, and I like to take new people out sometimes, but setting up topropes on 5.7's gets old. I could see how finding someone to teach you how to safely climb multi pitch rock in the mountains would be hard. I pretty much learned as I went with help from books, but that's not the safest way to go. Both this and the money issue might be why bouldering and gym climbing is so popular because all you need is shoes, and you can just go and do it without having to know what you are doing.

 

As for the original discussion, don't forget that a lot of the world's best climbers over the years have come from the PNW, and despite what the AAJ says, a lot is getting done here (now that I think about it I might even be in your AAJ!). Why don't more people talk about what they're doing online? Why should they? I like reading trip reports and looking at pictures, and have shared a couple of my trips that I thought were neat here, but for the most part when I get back from a climb I'm not thinking about rushing to the computer to download and shrink pictures to post here, I'm thinking about beer and food, and continue to think about those things until it's time to go back to work/school/climbing. Evidence of this is in the fact that my first TR came about 4 months after the climb, and my other one was when I hurt my leg and couldn't walk and was bored. I was been able to muster the motivation to write things up for the NWMJ last year, but some have been left out.

[Alex]

This might sound terrible, but I blame it squarely on sport climbing and gyms. The bar for entry is SO LOW now, that one doesn't have to make much of a mental, physical, or financial investment in climbing. As such, there is little

 

** committment **

 

I used to think "Wow, look at all the climbers getting exposed to the sport now!" as I hung out at Smith, Red rocks, or even in the Icicle. But with rare exceptions, these days I think the masses of people climbing in the gym venture outside only rarely; those that are outside who are actually clipping bolts rarely venture over to trad climbing, and even fewer venture into the mountains.

 

I mine craigslist every so often, and am always surprised at the sheer number of posts of people selling off a pair of shoes and a harness and a few 'biners. These are people who climbed for an outing or two, or a year or two, but are moving on. Why? Perhaps as the previous poster says cost, but there are so many other factors...climbing is about as selfish as an activity as you can find, and most people are raised on team sports so the isolation of climbing can be unnerving. There are alot of other reasons. Like everyone here, I've known alot of my climbing partners to quit once they got married or had kids, etc.

 

Now, that might not be bad. For sure every insanely croweded day at Exit 38 is balanced by an empty day in the mountains, and for those of us in the mountains not waiting in line for a route (unlike Cham) is awesome! I *like* that when I've done neat trips in the mountains, I didn't encounter many other people...

 

But in the longer term this trend doesnt bode well for the stewardship of wilderness areas, or climbing. Land managers tend to manage their resources for those users who are most likely to visit: which means (something like) funds for trail maintenance will go to trail crews working on Cascade Pass trail leading to Cascade Pass, but not beyond. Will Stehekin road ever be fixed? Hell no, the only people heading up-valley were climbers.

[pope]

Why do you care? The Cascades will always be a collection of rugged, difficult-to-reach peaks featuring a bunch of moderate grade IV/V climbs that no elite climber outside of Washington will ever give a rip about. The bigger, badder-assed stuff ain't here (as far as the media is concerned). You can put up a 5.12 VI (if you can find it) and only folks here will care. You will not get sponsored for climbing here. The climbing media does not care and they never will. It doesn't matter whether a NW climb rivals something in Colorado or California. Nobody is paying attention.

 

Let's remember what's special about the Cascades. Within a few hours of a metropolitan area, you (the mediocre weekend warrior) can beat your way up some ridiculous, bug-infested overgrown "trail" and within a few hours (or a long day) you can find the kind of adventure nearly parallel to what Fred B. encountered six or seven decades ago. If the AAJ and MattP don't pat your back for the effort, who cares?

[Rad]

I hear lots of reasons for low numbers of people in the alpine, but none of the arguments address why this supposed shift away from alpine climbing is happening now as opposed to ten or more years ago.

 

Cams and fancy gear has always been expensive. Gyms and sport climbers have been around for 20+ years. People picking up other sports is not new, nor is the transition from carefree youth to responsible parenthood.

 

In fact, I'll suggest that CC is making it EASIER for people to get into the alpine than ever before. Here's how:

 

1 - Increased beta on routes, from classics to new FAs.

2 - Detailed condition reports on same.

3 - Forums for ride shares and finding partners of all sorts.

4 - Yard sales where one can buy gear on the cheap.

5 - Copious advice (good, bad and ugly) about how to do everything, including transition from the gym to climbing outdoors.

 

For me, the lack of skilled partners kept me out of the alpine when I first moved here. Thanks to CC I have a pretty good network now.

 

If you think newbies are not interested in getting into the alpine go to the newbies forum and see how many hits the 'alpine tips for newbies' has gotten. Look up the 'alpine camping/climbing tips thread' and you'll see the same thing.

 

In the past year I've climbed with partners who are in their early to mid-20s who are into alpine climbing, and I've found a few beautiful unclimbed lines waiting for FAs.

 

If you want to rationalize your own shift away from climbing using one of the arguments above that's fine. If you are passionate about climbing you will find a way to do it. If not, then happy trails on the golf course or whatever floats your (sail) boat.

[ivan]

i'm a washingtonian climber and enjoying the hell out of myself, even if i've yet to do a FA of a kewl alpine route