Crazy Permit Fines

[marylou]

That was the point I was trying to make. That and Blake's been busted for not having a permit in the park at least once before.

 

Judges generally don't care for people who think they are above the law.

[Dannible]

No, I don't think that Blakes been ticketed before. And not that it matters, but I think he worked for NCNP for a while, so it's not like he has a vendetta against them.

 

And sorry if I sound like an ass. A big ticket is just a hard pill to swallow when your bank account in in the single digits.

 

I'm also sorry for using words like I and We. I will only post for the greater good of mankind from here on out. But like I said, most of the time I get a permit, and I think that the rangers do fine in the office, but I figured registering for so many zones would be a hassle for all parties involved, including the ranger who would have to deal with trying to figure out how to go about it.

[marylou]

Ok, well he told me about being ticketed for illegal camping at Lake 6305, so that's all I know.

 

If ya knowinly break the law, things like htis are going to happen. If you have a legal history of doing same, the judge is going to care what your reason is that. much. less.

[Jens]

Please name the judge. It would be the correct thing to do for every voter that reads this site to put a campaign sign in their front yard for that judge's opponent on his next re-election bid.

 

 

And as a word of caution...

Remember "Larry the Tool" (all U.S. backcountry rangers for you newbies) frequently touch bases on this website.

 

I've rarely gotten permits in 20 years of overnight backcountry climbing and legally can't be cited because of a loophole. Ask me how at the roundup over a beer.

[geoff]

The first mistake was to make incriminating statements. You have a right to not make such statements. Don't lie because that's a crime. Just say that you saw what happened to Rodney King and would rather not talk with the police.

 

Saying less in court would have also helped.

[dmuja]

I guess I just don't get the whole "park rangers are tools" and the "we are so special because we be doin extreme-o-rama light n fast climbin thing", as opposed to the rest of you losers who actually NEED permits. Its all so Dean Potterish to me.

[Skeezix]

I was a summer volunteer there 2002-2005. In the last year they have had several major personnel changes, including the superinetndent. Several long-time rangers have left, with exisitng people moving into the vacated positions while some new people have come in from elsewhere. The new superintendent, for example, moved here from another park. Either the flux has made people forget the previous culture or the new people have decided to make NCNP an unfriendly place.

 

That said, each year I was there there were always one or two seasonals who were stiff pricks and got reputations within the staff of being ill-suited to their roles precisely because the rangers want people to cooperate with them, not be coerced. These people were never allowed back.

 

It may be true that several long-term rangers have left, but Kelly Bush is still the Wilderness District Ranger. She's been there longer than dirt! Since...like...the fifties or something! She's grown roots into the rock of North Cascades National Park. When you meet a climbing ranger in the backcountry, that person works for Kelly, and Kelly is giving them their marching orders. Kelly Bush runs the show up there, and I guarantee you... Kelly Bush is nobody's tool.

[Jens]

.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Jens

[dmuja]

and I believe (seeing her pics in several guides) climbed many of those peaks before many here were even ready to shit in their diaper

[Jens]

As for being in diapers...

Climbers (some who post here) were the first recreational users to enter these wildnerness areas (long before hunters, fishers, hikers, campers, and rangers).

The miners where the first non indians.

 

We climbers certainly are special.

Spray and flame away!

Edited October 4, 2007 by Jens

[John Frieh]

Peddle some more pics to the tabloids of you two sending "extremo cascade gnar" for some scratch.

 

NPS has nothing to do with the amount so I dont know why you/anyone is even bitching about them.

 

Neither does being a "poor college student"... lady justice is blindfolded last time I checked.

 

If you think their self issue system sucks work with them to improve it... all my interactions with Kelly have been positive.

 

Judge should be your one bitch point. Yeah it sucks... so suck it up.

[Kat_Roslyn]

Yes, I love BC. Now could you tell the pretty bitch in immigration to quit impeding my entrance because of an eight-year-old public intoxication charge, please?

Sky,

Dude, eight year olds?

[Dannible]

I guess I just don't get the whole "park rangers are tools" and the "we are so special because we be doin extreme-o-rama light n fast climbin thing", as opposed to the rest of you losers who actually NEED permits. Its all so Dean Potterish to me.

 

Dude, come on. Are you reading what I'm saying? I have met some very nice park rangers, and have no problem with them, or any other authority figures as a whole. I guess what it comes down to is that I am upset that you can be fined for using public land that is maintained (or protected) with our tax dollars even if you don't harm anything. We broke the law and are criminals, but that doesn't mean that we can't share our opinions on that law. Permits are not a bad thing. They help NPS manage and protect the park, but I don't think that the only way to get people to go get a permit is by scaring them into it. That is what the tickets are for: to scare us, and to make an example out of those who don't comply, so that more will. There are plenty of crimes out there that are far more serious than what we did that no one is trying to stop, and yet the permit thing is very actively enforced. Like I keep saying, I almost always get a permit, and would even if it wasn't required. This quarter I am studying human impact in Washington's mountains for school; I find the information gained by the permit system interesting, and plan on using it.

 

And the whole thing about "we are so special because we be doin extreme-o-rama light n fast climbin thing." I take offense. I don't care what kind of style people climb in, and don't think I'm special for what I do. When I meet people who don't climb, I don't talk about the climbing. I'd say that most people who know me don't know that I climb. None of it matters to 99.99% of the population. I am a far less experienced climber than most here, and wouldn't claim otherwise. Sometimes I like fast and light climbing, but I also love slow and relaxed trips. This trip was anything but fast and light. Please just try not to judge me based on a few things that I write on the internet.

[Rad]

Bummer about the fine bump up. One idea: write a wicked nasty letter, wait 24 hours, then burn it and pay the fine. It's not worth the negative energy in your life.

 

I've learned that mea culpa plus hat-in-hand puppy eyes works better than a stream of semi-logical excuses.

 

..........

 

But since you're venting, here's a story someone shared with me:

 

I was going to bed the other night when my wife told me that I had left the light on in the shed. She could see from the bedroom window. As I looked for myself, I saw that there were people in the shed taking things.

 

I phoned the police, and they told me that no one was in the area to help at this time, but they would send someone over as soon as they were available.

 

I said "OK," hung up, and waited one minute, then phoned the police back. "Hello. I just called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now 'cause I've shot them." Within five minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, an Armed Response unit, the works. Of course, they caught the burglars red-handed. One of the officers said: "I thought you said that you shot them!" I replied, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"

[ivan]

Bummer about the fine bump up. One idea: write a wicked nasty letter, wait 24 hours, then burn it and pay the fine. It's not worth the negative energy in your life.

 

I've learned that mea culpa plus hat-in-hand puppy eyes works better than a stream of semi-logical excuses.

 

..........

 

But since you're venting, here's a story someone shared with me:

 

I was going to bed the other night when my wife told me that I had left the light on in the shed. She could see from the bedroom window. As I looked for myself, I saw that there were people in the shed taking things.

 

I phoned the police, and they told me that no one was in the area to help at this time, but they would send someone over as soon as they were available.

 

I said "OK," hung up, and waited one minute, then phoned the police back. "Hello. I just called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now 'cause I've shot them." Within five minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, an Armed Response unit, the works. Of course, they caught the burglars red-handed. One of the officers said: "I thought you said that you shot them!" I replied, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"

that's fucking awesome!

 

the admitting to The Tool of a transgression in the first place was a mistake (obviously) - you shoulda told 'em you were just pushign the meth the whole trip and didn't stop the whole time to do anything more than satisfy your crazed sexual urges on the invasive mtn goats w/o your confession they had no evidence at all, right?

 

christ, i hate authority figures - but what can you do? go climbing in somalia?

[Blake]

Peddle some more pics to the tabloids of you two sending "extremo cascade gnar" for some scratch.

 

NPS has nothing to do with the amount so I dont know why you/anyone is even bitching about them.

 

Neither does being a "poor college student"... lady justice is blindfolded last time I checked.

 

If you think their self issue system sucks work with them to improve it... all my interactions with Kelly have been positive.

 

Judge should be your one bitch point. Yeah it sucks... so suck it up.

 

John, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. If you read what I wrote you'll see I never complained about the NPS/Kelly Bush so I dont understand why you are suggesting I stop doing so.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with the comment about selling pictures to "tabloids" either, but Dan and I received a whole $50 for the the photo that was published by Climbing (started by Alpinist finding us following a TR on here...)and this amount did not even cover one person's transportation costs to the trailhead. We didn't do anything to make money, and if we had, we'd have been monumental failures in that regard.

 

Your advise to 'suck it up' is probably necessary at this point, but a bitter pill to swallow.

[David Trippett]

Yes, I love BC. Now could you tell the pretty bitch in immigration to quit impeding my entrance because of an eight-year-old public intoxication charge, please?

Sky,

Dude, eight year olds?

 

Eight-year-olds, Dude.

 

 

[dmuja]

Dannible said:

Permits are not a bad thing. They help NPS manage and protect the park, but I don't think that the only way to get people to go get a permit is by scaring them into it.

 

Personally I don't think a completely non-compulsory permit system would amount to much, but regardless of whatever yours or my opinion on this is, to attempt to argue a point of philosophy while in a purely legal context (how the original post cames across to me) like explaining your case in front of a judge who's job it is to rule based on what the law says (not on what anyone thinks of the law or why the law was meant for others because "we were very prepared" etc,) is naive at best, and maybe -from the judges point of view- presumptive or even arrogant.

 

But as I stated, I have some experience and Im certainly no fan of judges in general. You have sound reasoning and valid points to be heard and made for a policy debate, but certainly not for a court of law. Thats just the way it is because we all have to co-operate to some degree and how we have set that co-operation up in this society is thru laws and the like.

 

And, fortunately or unfortunately this also means aplying those laws equally (at least attempting to) to all. No you guys weren't Jane or Joe hiker clueless and unprepared, you gotz skills. So what? Is there a provision in the law that says if you know what you are doing then you get to travel sans permit? That maybe good for some but bad for others if there were such a clause, but there's not.

 

So, like others have also said, you took a chance based on your own philosophy and choosing and now you should just accept that and fight on in the proper context, ie letters, elections, public meetings, organizing etc. Your far from alone in being somewhat uneasy with a permit system to gain access to public land. Unfortunately though in years to come there will be even more regulations and restrictions imposed as impact and threats of further impact are always on the increase.

 

As to your (any climbers) "specialness", your Mom and Dad no doubt think you're special. I am impressed by any persons climbing accomplishments. But I don't kid myself either (as you apparently don't). There is nothing special about vertical crawling. It looks funny, takes a good deal of time and money, and accomplishes almost nothing for the greater good. It is something that seems to arise out of an anti social- neurotic impulse deep within the individual. It involves a lot of inconvenience and needless suffering. It only brings confusion and heartache to those close to us who do not partake of such self indulgence and to boot, half of it happens only in our own mind. Special, yeah, id say your special. Have you met Ed?

[dmuja]

PS- I know I just thru yours Jens And Blakes POV all together just for the sake of having a descent arguement LoL!

[Dannible]

You have sound reasoning and valid points to be heard and made for a policy debate, but certainly not for a court of law.

 

To sum up my side of this whole thing, I just wanted to do a little whining and complaining. People rant about some pretty random stuff up in here, at least this is climbing related.

 

Please...if you're going to hate me, don't hate me for my ablity to move quickly and fluidly over class 4 terrain, or my prowess when it comes to surmounting widespread blowdowns and devels club; hate me for my rugged good looks and girlish charm.

[rob]

I don't understand why they even issue fines for failing to get a free permit. Why not just issue Blake et. al a permit from the backcountry, instead of a fine?

 

Unless they're looking to make money from the fines, that is.

 

A $250 fine for failing to get a free permit to sleep on public land is crazy, regardless of what Ranger Kelly or whoever says.

Edited October 4, 2007 by robmcdan

[AlpineK]

I don't understand why they even issue fines for failing to get a free permit. Why not just issue Blake et. al a permit from the backcountry, instead of a fine?

 

The rangers issue permits in the backcountry for folks who forget or blow it off while climbing on Rainier. That seems like a pretty sensible way of dealing with the issue.

[armin]

...

 

But since you're venting, here's a story someone shared with me:

 

I was going to bed the other night when my wife told me that I had left the light on in the shed. She could see from the bedroom window. As I looked for myself, I saw that there were people in the shed taking things.

 

I phoned the police, and they told me that no one was in the area to help at this time, but they would send someone over as soon as they were available.

 

I said "OK," hung up, and waited one minute, then phoned the police back. "Hello. I just called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now 'cause I've shot them." Within five minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, an Armed Response unit, the works. Of course, they caught the burglars red-handed. One of the officers said: "I thought you said that you shot them!" I replied, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"

 

Now this made me laugh. Well done.

[John Frieh]

Peddle some more pics to the tabloids of you two sending "extremo cascade gnar" for some scratch.

 

NPS has nothing to do with the amount so I dont know why you/anyone is even bitching about them.

 

Neither does being a "poor college student"... lady justice is blindfolded last time I checked.

 

If you think their self issue system sucks work with them to improve it... all my interactions with Kelly have been positive.

 

Judge should be your one bitch point. Yeah it sucks... so suck it up.

 

John, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. If you read what I wrote you'll see I never complained about the NPS/Kelly Bush so I dont understand why you are suggesting I stop doing so.

 

You're right... you didn't. But others in this thread pointed questions directly at Kelly asking her why the fine was so high. No one from the NPS pushed for the higher fine... just the judge. Hence my comment.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with the comment about selling pictures to "tabloids" either, but Dan and I received a whole $50 for the the photo that was published by Climbing (after they came and found us following a TR on here...)and this amount did not even cover one person's transportation costs to the trailhead.

 

That isn't what you said happened here. Did you contact them? Or did they contact you?

[G-spotter]

OMG, maybe NOLSe should get a fine too - for littering, leaving all those damn Neutrinos from his quiver spread all over da mountains.