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dmuja

H**d Aftermath..

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Defcon 5 - attack imminent

 

How should climbers respond?

 

Im betting that legislation will follow shortly. The lawyers and politicians will get involved because thats what they do (no offense intended). There will be again another move to charge rescue fees, pass along rescue costs to rescuees, and this time, restrictions or even an outright ban on certain types of climbing. Its in the wind now after probably one of the most publicized search and rescue attempts in mountaineering history. I hope Im wrong about the wind.

 

My best to the families and climbers involved in this. I have utmost respect for them and they deserve our sympathy, prayers and best wishes. Apparently, this was no ordinary mountain SAR operation however. Whether it was the "James Kim" effect (may he R.I.P), the Internet wagging the media dogs or some other reason, I can't say for sure, but its not every climbing accident that draws in hightech "spy" equipment and communication companies, the FBI as well as multiple branches of the military in addition to the local authorities and volunteer mountain rescue groups. Mostly though it was the medias (national and world wide) hype and obsession that made this one different. Careers could be trashed under the pressure of such bright lights, so was that the reason maybe?

 

NBC news tonight closed their now nightly "Mt. Hood" piece by citing the high costs of the rescue op emphasizing it as "a $100.000 bill that the tax payers will have to cover". As the story has now become stale and almost routine the "cost issue" was clearly made the crux of their report. We can talk about the accuracy of that amount and what made this rescue effort "different" but really the point here is more along the lines of this:

 

How should climbers respond to whats likely to be the after effects of the "Hood Accident"?

 

Or, do you think this will all blow over once the media attention is off?

 

Should we come together on this in some way, or are we blowing it by sticking to some hidden neurotic tendency that we choose to portray as something like "tough individualism"?

 

Also, how did CC.COM do here? Could it (we) have done better? Did or does CC.COM help or hurt climbing in light of this particular "event". Could CC.COM help in some kind of organized response to the issues that are (imho) about to be raised regarding costs and access?

 

Not implying anything here, just seems like some stuff may need to get said. 'Coarse, it may be that Im just paranoid, but I DO live in a state where the Police now use infared scopes at night just to pull you over for not wearing a seatbelt.

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poeple fogive, poeple foget. ali dodged the draft then lit the olympic torch years later.

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DMUJA:

 

I think your post is interesting in that it kinda gets at something that I've been thinking about. (OK, my point is pretty well off subject, but your post got me thinking) That is, what is CC.com's (or the members) responsibility to the climbing community (or other members)? Let me explain.

 

I have seen requests for beta that garnered replies and suggestions that I thought were not always the greatest. Note that I am not saying that this was the case with the Hood accident. To be honest I think I read the request for beta and the responses, but I don't remember much about them.

 

If we have been to a hill recently and someone asks about ut, certainly we can offer current conditions info.

 

But, without knowing comfort levels, experience, etc., should we advise people to either take or leave behind particular pieces of gear or protection?

 

I don't have the answer to that, but in the future I will be careful to say that although this is what I happened to take, who you are and when you go may require otherwise.

 

I would hate to say something like "Oh, you won't need crampons on that hill," and then hear that someone took a spill that might not have had they been properly equipped.

 

Granted, it is the climber's responsibility to adequately prepare (and to take everything on CC.com with a grain of salt) but still....

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poeple fogive, poeple foget. ali dodged the draft then lit the olympic torch years later.

 

Muhamed Ali has variously but mostly been held in esteem by people across the globe as a both "charming underdog" and "true champion".

 

The only place I know of where climbers might have once been held in any esteem is europe. For the most part, especially in America, climbers are at best considered oddities, and more often seen as bothersome dirtbags or spoiled "eleitist" irrisponsible risk takers. The question I have along these lines is - did we become what they called us?

 

Putting it another way, does the "climber-rebel-antisocial- dirtbag" image/complex thing that seems to come across here on CC.com so clearly serve the cause of a sustainable climbing culture? Maybe if we keep thinking "it will all blow over, or "fuck them, they will never understand" etc., only serves to bring closer the day when climbing may indeed become outlawed.

 

You might think Im nuts, but 10-15 years ago, if you would have asked me about cigarette smoking some day becoming as illegal as illicit drugs Id have thought YOU were nutz. Hear were are on that verge though.

 

If you ask me, it looks like society and maybe humanity in general seems headed for totalitarianism and some day climbing may become a very political act of subverting the state. Maybe sooner then we think. Im just wondering if theres a way we could "resist" now or are we doomed to become quaint relics of a bygone time where there actually was somethink akin to a freedom in those hills?

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Another thing, if they do restrict or ban certain types/times of climbing on Mt Hood, what an utterly fucked up legacy that is to lay on those 3 climbers. Does anyone think thats what they would have wanted?

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This was a climbing incident (or accident, however you wish to look at it). They happen every year. 11 people died on Everest this year, what's going to change next year? Probably nothing.

 

Three men just died on Hood. I doubt anything will change in the long run. There was no audacious breach of climber responsibility here from what we've gathered. They got caught in a sticky situation and it snowballed. They took a gamble by going alpine-style and paid the ultimate price for it, pure and simple. Had they had full body down suits on with infrared goggles, the same thing could have easily happened, we'll never know.

 

Will the man slam his fist down with newer, tougher regulations and rules? I doubt it. Why would they? These men were quite accomplished climbers, and the route and style they attempted seems to have been within their joined abilities, but still they lost the gamble. What can the government/park system/community do?

 

-Park entrance fees will not skyrocket because of this.

-John and Jane Doe will not look at their 2007 tax summary and see additional money taken out of their pockets because of this rescue.

 

 

What about CC.com?

 

First of all, I think it was truely beneficial for not only those of us on this board (as climbers), but also those around the country, and world for that matter (as nonclimbers), to come here and be able to better understand what was going on up there on the mountain. Look at the 55+ page Hood topic in the Oregon section, disregard the dumbflucks who sprayed and came to the board with a negative agenda, and you've got something really beautiful. You've got people from Germany, the east coast, west coast...everywhere, coming here to say their peace, learn, mourn, and pay tribute to these guys who lost their life on Mt. Hood.

 

I think that's pretty amazing. People came together and helped others understand and cope. Hell, news stations and reporters were getting their information here, that's something I'd never imagine.

 

 

On the negative side for CC.com...I think it's really too bad that there's so much spray that goes on here. I won't bother to link it here, but if you look back several months when one of those climbers came to this board asking for advice and tips from us, he was shunned by some, and given the general brash of insults and pessemistic slander that plagues these forums. Ultimately, he got the advice he was seeking, but had to go through the usual BS of dealing with a few 'bad apples' to get it. Some people said some really terrible things in that thread, and look at them...they came to pass. That's something I wouldn't want to have on my shoulders. That's not what CC.com is, or should be, about.

 

Why? What's the point?

I think the potential of this message board was shown in the Mt. Hood Rescue thread. I wish we could be like that more often (minus the few odd yahoos who joined just to spread their spiteful comments). Hopefully in the future, people can remember what this board is made for, and that's advice and not misadvice or spite. Everyone is guilty of it at somepoints, myself included, but hopefully we can try and use the 'if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all' tactic more often.

 

 

Asides from that, if the country and the climbing community takes nothing else away from this, I hope it's that stuff like this happens, and it can happen to seasoned veterans or first time hill walkers. Hopefully it will stay fresh in people's minds and not act as a deterant from the mountains, but as a warning to heed. The mountains are beautiful, but can be deadly.

 

I hope that the general public learned a little bit about mountaineering and climbing (and climbers) as well. Hopefully through media outlets such as this board, TV, and the newspaper, they will come away with a little more knowledge as to why we climb. Through better understanding comes acceptance.

 

In a world with ever increasing rules and regulations, acceptance and understanding is what we need.

 

That's my peace.

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This was a climbing incident (or accident, however you wish to look at it). They happen every year. 11 people died on Everest this year, what's going to change next year? Probably nothing.

 

Three men just died on Hood. I doubt anything will change in the long run. There was no audacious breach of climber responsibility here from what we've gathered. They got caught in a sticky situation and it snowballed. They took a gamble by going alpine-style and paid the ultimate price for it, pure and simple. Had they had full body down suits on with infrared goggles, the same thing could have easily happened, we'll never know.

 

Will the man slam his fist down with newer, tougher regulations and rules? I doubt it. Why would they? These men were quite accomplished climbers, and the route and style they attempted seems to have been within their joined abilities, but still they lost the gamble. What can the government/park system/community do?

 

-Park entrance fees will not skyrocket because of this.

-John and Jane Doe will not look at their 2007 tax summary and see additional money taken out of their pockets because of this rescue.

 

 

What about CC.com?

 

First of all, I think it was truely beneficial for not only those of us on this board (as climbers), but also those around the country, and world for that matter (as nonclimbers), to come here and be able to better understand what was going on up there on the mountain. Look at the 55+ page Hood topic in the Oregon section, disregard the dumbflucks who sprayed and came to the board with a negative agenda, and you've got something really beautiful. You've got people from Germany, the east coast, west coast...everywhere, coming here to say their peace, learn, mourn, and pay tribute to these guys who lost their life on Mt. Hood.

 

I think that's pretty amazing. People came together and helped others understand and cope. Hell, news stations and reporters were getting their information here, that's something I'd never imagine.

 

 

On the negative side for CC.com...I think it's really too bad that there's so much spray that goes on here. I won't bother to link it here, but if you look back several months when one of those climbers came to this board asking for advice and tips from us, he was shunned by some, and given the general brash of insults and pessemistic slander that plagues these forums. Ultimately, he got the advice he was seeking, but had to go through the usual BS of dealing with a few 'bad apples' to get it. Some people said some really terrible things in that thread, and look at them...they came to pass. That's something I wouldn't want to have on my shoulders. That's not what CC.com is, or should be, about.

 

Why? What's the point?

I think the potential of this message board was shown in the Mt. Hood Rescue thread. I wish we could be like that more often (minus the few odd yahoos who joined just to spread their spiteful comments). Hopefully in the future, people can remember what this board is made for, and that's advice and not misadvice or spite. Everyone is guilty of it at somepoints, myself included, but hopefully we can try and use the 'if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all' tactic more often.

 

 

Asides from that, if the country and the climbing community takes nothing else away from this, I hope it's that stuff like this happens, and it can happen to seasoned veterans or first time hill walkers. Hopefully it will stay fresh in people's minds and not act as a deterant from the mountains, but as a warning to heed. The mountains are beautiful, but can be deadly.

 

I hope that the general public learned a little bit about mountaineering and climbing (and climbers) as well. Hopefully through media outlets such as this board, TV, and the newspaper, they will come away with a little more knowledge as to why we climb. Through better understanding comes acceptance.

 

In a world with ever increasing rules and regulations, acceptance and understanding is what we need.

 

That's my peace.

 

that was quite well said.

 

:brew:

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Eventually, everything will be regulated and taxed.

Overpopulation is the real problem.

Acceptance is lame.

Rebellion will be squashed.

We will all die in prison for owning an ice ax.

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Gov. Kulongoski came out directly last week and said he didn't believe in charging people for rescue operations.

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The Sheriff should check every climber for the required equipment. There should be a $100 fee for each of the 40,000 people who attempt the summit each year. The equipment list is as follows:

1-Bright Orange Hooded Gortex Parka and Pants

2-Bright Orange Tent and Down Sleeping Bag

3-Matches

4-Extra Socks

5-Cell Phone with Spare Battery

6-Food and Water for one week

7-Ropes and all that other stuff like crampons, ice axe, etc

8-Signal mirror and whistle

9-Compass

10-List of next of kin

 

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...if you look back several months when one of those climbers came to this board asking for advice and tips from us, he was shunned by some, and given the general brash of insults and pessemistic slander that plagues these forums. Ultimately, he got the advice he was seeking, but had to go through the usual BS of dealing with a few 'bad apples' to get it. Some people said some really terrible things in that thread, and look at them...they came to pass. That's something I wouldn't want to have on my shoulders.

as the author of one of the terrible things said that came to pass, i'd remind you to re-read what he wrote too - he asked for advice on something that was dumb, he was told it was dumb, than got angry that he was told his idea was dumb. harsh language is fun, especially on the inter-web b/c it truly doesn't matter here - if you're from nyc you're skin oughta be plenty thick. obviously no one actually wanted him to die.

 

do you really want a totally shiny happy cc.com?

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I've followed the Hood thread from the gitgo obviously out of concern for the three climbers but i also have an ulterior motive, I'm an Operations Leader with Douglas County NV SAR on the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe. The info I got from you guys will be invaluable for our unit and I'd like to thank you. We rarely have to go find climbers but we still have to train for it. To the SAR guys up there I know how hard it is to go from rescue to recovery but I guess it goes with the territory. Hell of a job you did.

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the issue will certainly blow over because it has come up MANY times before and nothing is done about it. the reason is simple....do you really think politicians want to sit around and write the legislation to deal with this issue ? it takes MONTHS to write legislation and i know for dang sure that if you polled a million voters none of them would say this is an issue they even care about. in 3 days the public will be focused back on britneys coochie hanging out of her limo and blown up soldiers in Iraq.

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...if you look back several months when one of those climbers came to this board asking for advice and tips from us, he was shunned by some, and given the general brash of insults and pessemistic slander that plagues these forums. Ultimately, he got the advice he was seeking, but had to go through the usual BS of dealing with a few 'bad apples' to get it. Some people said some really terrible things in that thread, and look at them...they came to pass. That's something I wouldn't want to have on my shoulders.

as the author of one of the terrible things said that came to pass, i'd remind you to re-read what he wrote too - he asked for advice on something that was dumb, he was told it was dumb, than got angry that he was told his idea was dumb. harsh language is fun, especially on the inter-web b/c it truly doesn't matter here - if you're from nyc you're skin oughta be plenty thick. obviously no one actually wanted him to die.

 

do you really want a totally shiny happy cc.com?

 

no i really don't.

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as the author of one of the terrible things said that came to pass, i'd remind you to re-read what he wrote too - he asked for advice on something that was dumb, he was told it was dumb, than got angry that he was told his idea was dumb. harsh language is fun, especially on the inter-web b/c it truly doesn't matter here - if you're from nyc you're skin oughta be plenty thick.

 

.......

 

Bad Ivan. (insert old person finger wag here) I had seen his request and didn't answer it the first go round cause I hadn't been up there for a while and thought guys like yourself would give better advice. It was strange to go back and read that thread after the search started.

 

It is stunning how much responsibility we really have.

 

As far as having the goverment show up to rescue us, I say PISS ON THEM. You dudes want them to rescue you, then EXPECT them to be able to say how they want the terms and conditions of you (and me) getting out and getting on it. Like when and where you can or cannot go.

 

They operate hand in hand.

 

The reason that the military got involved a long time ago, is they thought that it would be good training. So maybe WE should be charging THEM for the help.

 

PMR and other volenter organizations RULE.

 

DON'T GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOMS!

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I doubt that the recent events on Hood will lead to restrictions - however I do think it's possible we will see a fee structure proposed and possibly even put in place. The war in Iraq has stripped publicly funded parks to the point where NPS staff are being forced to find additional ways to charge or figure out who to cut. Rising fees on Denali are a great example -- I wouldn't be surprised to see a registration and fee structure proposed for Rainier, the Grand other prominent mountains (perhaps even El. Cap). (Hood might be a little harder because it lies in a national forest and thus the infrastructure doesn't exist.)

 

It sucks to think about climbing and how it relates to things like the economy and public opinion, but I think that the Iraq war has put us in a really deep hole and in the next few years the state and federal governments are going to do everything they can to increase revenue sources for public ventures. Public opinion regarding climbers and rescue may just be the impetus for legislation that regulates and turns climbing into a commodity.

 

Personally I have mixed opinions on this. I think it's bogus that climbers burden more than their share of the costs - however if climbers, hikers, boaters etc. shouldered more of the costs for our national parks then we would have more a voice when it comes to conservation and issues like rescue and required gear. Think about the voice that hunters and fishermen / women have in the West. This is because hunting and fishing license are huge sources of revenue for states and thus there is a direct correlation between the people, their activities and the land. Climbers / hikers etc. sink money into park passes and campgrounds but there is no additional revenue that is directly related to their activities (hunters and fishermen pay these same fees).

 

Until fat, lazy American sees how we (climbers) contribute to the economy and thus help support our parks, fat lazy American will continually whine about how we're sucking them, as taxpayers, dry. They could care less about the obvious (Iraq, pork projects like Alaska's "Bridge to Nowhere") and as long as the media and legislators stands up and makes comment about the burden we put on taxpayers we'll always be fighting against public opinion.

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Doubtless many will remember other accidents on Mt Hood that generated just as much or more coverage...including cover-page spreads in Backpacker(?) magazine back in the 80s, and images of cartwheeling Blackhawk helicopters bouncing off Crater Rock loosing their props all over the snow (no one was hurt!). Anyone who is not familiar with the mountain might rightfully think it irresponsible or dangerous to "climb Mt Hood in winter". However I think the only way the mountain would ever become off-limits to climbing is if it erupted.

 

My first climb of Hood was a solo jaunt up in Dec 1993, and it was a wonderful, safe experience. I've climbed it many times since mostly in winter. (Who wants to slog up a dusty slag heap in the middle of summer???) Bad weather happens, and even experienced local climbers will get caught out, let alone folks coming in from out of state. But the mountain is no more dangerous than any other mountain anywhere: Rainier is certainly more dangerous, climbing in Alaska is dangerous, the Rockies have their own dangers, hell even the Adirondacks and Whites are dangerous in certain conditions. I think for many, if not all, climbers if it wasnt at least somewhat dangerous, we would'nt go.

 

Will anything change because of this tragedy? No.

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as the author of one of the terrible things said that came to pass, i'd remind you to re-read what he wrote too - he asked for advice on something that was dumb, he was told it was dumb, than got angry that he was told his idea was dumb. harsh language is fun, especially on the inter-web b/c it truly doesn't matter here - if you're from nyc you're skin oughta be plenty thick.

 

.......

 

Bad Ivan. (insert old person finger wag here) I had seen his request and didn't answer it the first go round cause I hadn't been up there for a while and thought guys like yourself would give better advice. It was strange to go back and read that thread after the search started.

 

It is stunning how much responsibility we really have.

 

As far as having the goverment show up to rescue us, I say PISS ON THEM. You dudes want them to rescue you, then EXPECT them to be able to say how they want the terms and conditions of you (and me) getting out and getting on it. Like when and where you can or cannot go.

 

They operate hand in hand.

 

The reason that the military got involved a long time ago, is they thought that it would be good training. So maybe WE should be charging THEM for the help.

 

PMR and other volenter organizations RULE.

 

DON'T GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOMS!

 

 

YAY BILL :brew:

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I think for many, if not all, climbers if it wasnt at least somewhat dangerous, we would'nt go.

 

I'll disagree with this.

 

This may be true for the "hard-core" climbers, but there are a large number of folks (think the often derided Mounties stereotype) who are just looking for a nice day in the mountains. Everyone knows that there is risk in climbing, as there is in any activity, but not everyone out climbing is looking for 'danger'. Also note that the folks who place the bolts 5 feet apart at Vantage are also trying to make climbing 'safe'.

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I have climbed in the Cascade range for 26 years; have been reading Accidents In North American Mountaineering and other climbing accident reports/stories for most of that time and, although there must have been such occurances, I cannot recall one where an experienced climber was lost/missing, etc. whose death would likely have been prevented by wearing a "locator beacon" or similar device. A possible exception is some of the persons lost in the 1986 Mt. Hood disaster, but they pretty much did not fit the description of "experienced climber". On the other hand, inexperienced climbers, hunters, skiers, fisherman, snomobilers, hikers, campers(who didn't even plan to leave a campsite) and vehicle drivers get lost all the time(and often don't tell anyone where they are going. Perhaps we should all put on a beacon when we leave the house.

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The Sheriff should check every climber for the required equipment. There should be a $100 fee for each of the 40,000 people who attempt the summit each year. The equipment list is as follows:

1-Bright Orange Hooded Gortex Parka and Pants

2-Bright Orange Tent and Down Sleeping Bag

3-Matches

4-Extra Socks

5-Cell Phone with Spare Battery

6-Food and Water for one week

7-Ropes and all that other stuff like crampons, ice axe, etc

8-Signal mirror and whistle

9-Compass

10-List of next of kin

 

Assuming assmaster isn't a troll, a week's worth of water at a gallon a day (which can be skimpy) weighs 56 lbs.

 

BTW, Mt. Hood can be climbed and descended car to car in under 5 hours on the bunny route.

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