infinite bliss

[kix]

silly dabbers.

[matt_warfield]

While IB is quite long, it really isn't breaking new ground (long bolted face climbs in the mountains or at least a ways from the road) as these type of routes have been long established elsewhere, including Europe and Canada. And how do we draw the line between Goat Wall or Portrero Chico, all long and bolted, from Mt. Garfield? Because it has a summit or is X miles from the road or is in/close to wilderness? And how do we distinguish rap bolting in alpine from rap bolting at true sport areas where it has long been the standard?

 

So I second OffWhite in that IB is not that out of the mainstream of today's climbing scene but is instead a lightning rod for people who basically don't like bolted climbs all that well in the first place.

Edited June 23, 2006 by matt_warfield

[JosephH]

I didn't raise the issue of time and money, Richard did (and of course now edits that post out to remove it). He raised it in saying how much time and expense Windham and Martin put into ignorant bliss as if that somehow simply excused their bad judgment in the matter and why I shouldn't critize it. I simply pointed out I have no less investment in such an endeavor and have every right to critize their judgment on that basis even if it were a legitimate argument which it isn't. Ditto on whether they are the "nicest guys" - even nice guys make bad calls now and then.

 

As for it not being a sport route and that sport climbers would be in over their heads on it; well, not sure which of the two that speaks more of. But the bottom line is it is a sport route.

 

As far as the Delicate Arch comparison is concerned - it is entirely appropriate - both climbs unnecessarily called down government and public sector attention on climbers and climbing in the NW and made us look both irresponsible and unwilling to police ourselves. Don't mistake my or others' restraint in not chopping it for any form of tacit approval of the route - it isn't - it is simply the desire not to start a bolt war. I'd take out a good number of bolts at Beacon but don't for exactly the same reason. But mistaking / taking that restraint for approval is just what many of you do - take the fact no one has chopped it to mean there is somehow a "consensus" in the NW community that the route is either ok or should remain. I don't believe that. I think that no one has chopped it means both that folks don't want to start a bolt war between individuals and that the community, instead of heading off a controversy by chopping it was paralyzed by its own divisions. Is someone here trying to claim this route isn't controversial inspite of all the private/govt/media attention it generated? If so I say get real - it was and remains a bad judgment call on the part of Windham, Martin, and the community that it happened and that it still exists.

[richard_noggin]

How about some Rock and Ice history

They receive a long article about LW and what he has done for climbing in Washington instead of printing that article they print a blurp on the longest sport route ,this term comes from them they even have a picture with the wrong line as the route in print and LW,s line hardly resembles the Preiss meandering route ,trust me he did not climb the 5.10 sections without pro ,so after they start an ethics war in washington they come out with an ethics issue with IB as the high light....sold a lot of issues... phuk'n assholes I personaly no longer subscribe to that rag for that reason and Jonathan Thargsa now on there payrole ...the lying route chopper than crag burning at J tree dude.

So you go through North Bend gangsta way to the back side of a wilderness area , climb a peak that most have never even seen let alone would want to climb ,no one even hikes there, dude it's not the Enchanments , 23 pitches complete with hair ball runouts, everyone is getting lost because of route finding...what a bolt ladder .

The route was put up outside the wilderness area untill latter they go OH!!!! that FS map is wrong

So let me see here JO, you have not done the route or even stood at the base, call it a rap bolted sport route because some put it in print, what are you like one of those gapers ...how did that rope get up there yeah like he went to the top with a 2300 ft rope and rap bolted it.

Like I said JO mind your own crag, your not part of the fix here you are part of the problem , there are many more bolted areas in wilderness areas they just have not been getting any spray ...Thank rock GOD!!!

This is the most long winded post I have ever made

[matt_m]

As for it not being a sport route and that sport climbers would be in over their heads on it; well, not sure which of the two that speaks more of. But the bottom line is it is a sport route.

 

A SPORT route, by the definition accepted by almost all climbers today, is a route in which the risk of injury in a fall is greatly reduced (if not eliminated) by the presence of bolts whose spacing/frequency provided said adequate protection. Routes on the Apron (Squamish OR Yosemite) are bolted but falls of 50 ft or more are certainly possible. No one I've EVER met has called these sport climbs. IB, which I HAVE CLIMBED, has NUMEROUS pitches in which falls of 80 or more feet are possible, often on terrain where injury is certain. Additionally, the 3rd/4th class pitch of 450+ ft of loose climbing where a fall would be fatal should be considered. Given these facts, almost any climber would disagree that IB is a sport climb. Ignoring this and labeling it a sport climb just so it fits within your definition of "objectionable climbs" is not sound reasoning. It would be like saying bad language should be censored. "shoot" is a bad word. "shoot" should be censored even though most do not consider "shoot" to be bad.

 

As far as the Delicate Arch comparison is concerned - it is entirely appropriate - both climbs unnecessarily called down government and public sector attention on climbers and climbing in the NW and made us look both irresponsible and unwilling to police ourselves. Don't mistake my or others' restraint in not chopping it for any form of tacit approval of the route - it isn't - it is simply the desire not to start a bolt war.

I disagree - Delicate Arch is in a National Park easily within view of a LARGE group of non-climbers. I'd bet almost no one OTHER THAN climbers have set eyes, close up, on the IB area of Mt Garfield. Yes it brought scrutiny on climbers but I'd argue it was MUCH more limited than Delicate arch and when problems arose, climbers addresses the parties concerns and the matter was settled amicably between all involved. I'd bet the general public never heard about IB or the "controversy". Delicate Arch made the local network news and involved a National Park and a major outdoor vendor. We're now over 3 years since it's debut and I've never heard mention of it from anyone BUT climbers, never seen in in a paper, television piece etc and the overwhelming presence online is in climbing forums like this.

 

I'd take out a good number of bolts at Beacon but don't for exactly the same reason. But mistaking / taking that restraint for approval is just what many of you do - take the fact no one has chopped it to mean there is somehow a "consensus" in the NW community that the route is either ok or should remain. I don't believe that. I think that no one has chopped it means both that folks don't want to start a bolt war between individuals and that the community, instead of heading off a controversy by chopping it was paralyzed by its own divisions. Is someone here trying to claim this route isn't controversial inspite of all the private/govt/media attention it generated? If so I say get real

 

Again, what "private/govt/media" attention? It created a stir 3 years ago for a little while and then was settled and hasn't shown up since. The only place it's controversial anymore is on cc.com. More and more I conclude that cc.com DOES NOT represent the climbing community overall. It is a facet of it to be sure but the percentage of "non-online-climbers" far out weights the cyber-climbers. being somewhat a member of supertopo, cc.com and rc.com (among others) I noticed in my searches that the outspoken posters re: IB on all these sites were very limited and many times were THE SAME PEOPLE. Yes IB was a hot topic for a little while but it's 15 minutes have long since past. the only place it remains "controversial" is on cc.com. Haven't heard mention of it at the cliffs since '03 beyond the occasion TR. You also criticize the "climbing communities" inaction on IB stating it's devision resulted in paralysis. What is not addressed here is the very possible fact that the "don't chop" division was a much large piece of the divide than the "chop it" side. Yes there was devision - but equally? Re Bolt Wars: I think "bolt wars" generally occur for 2 reasons. 1) an area's climbing community is TRULY equally devided on the issue and struggles to find common ground with many parties on both sides action out. (common years ago during the sport climbing arrival but much less so today) 2) a minority group (or individual) acts out in opposition the the climbing majority (eg a rap bolter at the Gunks or an ardent traditionalist at Smith).

 

Bottom line here is that the ONLY place IB seems to be controversial on any scale anymore is on this web site which is only a sampling of the whole PNW climbing community. Yes it provides good, healthy debate (why I still return) but more and more I realize there's a lot more to the PNW Climbing world than this or any climbing site (why I frequent them less and less).

 

I'll continue to frequent this site to check on access (thanks JH for all the Beacon Stewardship) and TR's but checking the PNW climbing pulse? Nah....

[slaphappy]

Facts:

 

1) anything harder than 5.7 is "sport bolted"

2) there are long runouts and routefinding on "easier" terrain

3) the route was done top down by traversing in on series of ledges (3-4) accessed from the climbers right

4) there was confusion on the wilderness boundary

5) trying to reason w/ JosephH is a waste of time

6) I am a fool for entering this discussion

[Off_White]

I am a fool for entering this discussion

 

Isn't that twice in one week you've declared that? It pretty much mirrors my own thought as I crafted my epistle.

[richard_noggin]

Friday night please don't judge me when i'm wasted

Edited June 24, 2006 by richard_noggin

[alpine1]

i had no idea i would have received such a burning 5 page reply with so many anal retentive attitudes (get over your selfs)that we had to go see for ourselves. Must say it was great fun very straight foward, not a sport climb, gym rats and matress people should beware.

[richard_noggin]

straight foward,

 

Thats a first anyone has said that about IB usually it's off route runout epic!!!

You must be LUCKY,HAVE GOOD BETA, OR GOOOOD AT ROUTE FINDING or a little of all the above.

Thanks alpine1 for a hands on evaluation

[Alpinfox]

Digression: Note that Infinite Bliss is really a variation of a route put up in 1999 by Mike Preiss onsight, solo (some self-belaying) and with no bolts.

 

So I just got an email out of the blue from Mike Preiss. He asked me to post this little mini-trip report of his trip up the face that IB is on.

 

Here is his email:

 

i was recently reading some net-chat comments about the route infinite bliss on mt garfield and a person{mt freak} said that i had ''taken the easeist way from ledge to ledge'' in july 1999 on the large ledge just right of the watermark i free soloed a commiting 5.9+ bouldery couple moves to the easier stair stepped rock above. aprox 80ft later i self belayed slightly out right on some killer 5.7-8 face and crack climbing {well protected} to the next ledge{same as i-b} with a small pool of h2o. i then free soloed up the great slabs slightly right and finding a small tree patch to bivi in. in a.m. i went straight up to the large ledge{same as i-b} below the final headwall, i traversed to the left side climbing a clean corner 5.7-8 then thru some small trees to a final 60ft 5.8+ rock wall. {grd 111+ 5.8+} i was thinking someone with my route beta would build on it takeing on the headwall with some bold 5.10r/x climbing but infinite bliss changes things. #1 most likley your not going to haul a rock rack with pins/hammer when you can just grab 17 qiuck draws. #2 theirs now a easy bail off which reduces the commitment/risk/adventure. #3 it brings in climbers who are not ready or just shouldnt be their in the first place. if youve read some of the trip reports{sketched out on 4th low 5th rock} or if they had a rack maybe they could get a piece in to get over that section and continue.adventure/risk/commitment. #4 eventually the bolts will have to be replaced to keep the masses ''safe''. so for better or worse the route changes things. to me its like haveing a bolt line up the north face bowl on mt index. its just not needed and reduces the commitment/risk/adventure. i have clipped many a bolt but i believe we should leave the alpine just that, alpine and these i-b kind of routes for the crags. the first ascentionist didnt know about my climb becaus aaj said it wasnt a big enough climb to report{in 2005 they did give it a paragraph} thank you and good climbing. mike preiss

[kukuzka1]

i know im 3 years late but?just had to let that out

[Pete_H]

"I have clipped many a bolt but i believe we should leave the alpine just that, alpine and these i-b kind of routes for the crags."

 

[Matt Kidd]

"I have clipped many a bolt but i believe we should leave the alpine just that, alpine and these i-b kind of routes for the crags."

 

 

X 2

[Edlinger]

I thought I heard that all the bolts were removed this past fall?

[Bug]

"I have clipped many a bolt but i believe we should leave the alpine just that, alpine and these i-b kind of routes for the crags."

 

 

X 2

X3

[pdk]

I thought I heard that all the bolts were removed this past fall?

 

If so, I think everyone who criticized the bolts should be required to go climb it.

 

Cause I'd put my money on it never being climbed again if they've been removed.

 

Is it better to have an unbolted line that never gets climbed, or a bolted route that sees regular traffic and enjoyment? This is rhetorical - we already know everyone's position....

 

 

 

 

 

[marc_leclerc]

"I have clipped many a bolt but i believe we should leave the alpine just that, alpine and these i-b kind of routes for the crags."

 

 

from what Ive heard though.... despite being pretty tall, isnt that face of garfield sort of 'alpine crag' like... with a short approach and stuff. Sort of like Yak Peak or Exfoliation Dome.... nobody complains about the bolts on the later two.....

[Bug]

Pax,

Thanks for posting this little gem.

I came to this area in 89 and happened upon Mt Garfield while searching for the hot springs in July of 90.

I had rope and rack and started up mid face and veered right.

I was up three short pitches when I turned around leaving two wired stoppers and a sling.

I thought I would get back but never did.

[Edlinger]

[quote=

If so, I think everyone who criticized the bolts should be required to go climb it.

 

No problem on that one dude. It has like one move of true 5.10a YDS at most.

Anyone know the status of the bolts? Is it true they are cleaned up?

The bolted version was for cowardly wankers.

[kukuzka1]

thats true, climbers are doing E10 whichis somthing like 513r/x

[keenwesh]

past fall? like fall of '09?

I know someone who did it last summer (july?) and bolts were intact.

it seems like there would be some fan fair and at least 1 heated thread here. since I have heard neither, I think the bolts are still intact, and your source is BS.

[kukuzka1]

no i-bs line probibly wouldntget climbed if it was chopped but you try rising to the challenge of the climb/face and takes what it gives you not lower it to your ability

Edited January 26, 2010 by kukuzka1

[kukuzka1]

i dont think people would mind a few belay/lead bolts but it was a little overkill[17 on one pitch]

[mountainsloth]

that face has so many lines waiting... I was just up in that area a couple weeks ago and was shocked at the immensity of it. How is it that this peak does not see more action!!!

 

I must admit, I have been tempted to climb IB but now that I have seen the face up close, I want to find my own natural line.