crackers Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Still, with millions of young recreational climbers, Mr. Mayville said climbing would one day be recognized as a high school sport nationwide. Not all climbers love the idea. Joseph Healy, 52, of Portland, Ore., a technology consultant and a climber for three decades, views climbing as a personal pursuit that takes place in the wilderness, not a competitive indoor sport with winners and losers. "Climbing competitions, with their focus on route difficulty and ratings, impose the entirely wrong mindset and approach to something I consider sacred," Mr. Healy said. -- JosephH in the NYT. So what did you actually say J? Quote
Distel32 Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 "fuckin' little 13 year old pricks are out climbing me by 3 number grades, I mean I live in a nursing home, that shit just ain't right.....back in the day (insert 'heroic' chesbeating)...." etc probably something along those lines. If you don't like competition climbing don't do it. Yet I applaud your attempt to be a martyr, we're very not proud of you. Quote
JosephH Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Well, as a former journalist, I'm well familar with the risks of saying anything at all. And not to in any way ding Stephen, but when you speak with a journalist you have to understand that they are attempting to craft and tell their story and set their context, not yours. So you typically have to accept that your statements may not come across - exactly - as you intended. Stephen is relatively close if not close enough for both our purposes in his article. A more accurate portrayal of what I was trying to get across would be: "[High School] Climbing competitions, with their focus on [interpersonal competition,] route difficulty, and ratings, impose [as an initial exposure for a beginning climber] the entirely wrong mindset and approach to something I [personally] consider sacred," Mr. Healy said. See the emails below for the actual sentence he is quote and for the notes that augmented our phone conversation for a better sense of what that sentence was boiled down from: --------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph E. Healy Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 2:26 PM To: Stephen Regenold Cc: Subject: RE: Stephen Regenold Gear Junkie: Survival Pak Attachments: Stephen, I know you are trying to focus on the rugged individualist vs.competitive team aspect of the rapid rise of climbing programs in HS's. The only way I can look at it is in the context of the evolutionary socialization process that was inevitable once gyms became established around the country. They became the engines of that socialization. What goes on in them bacame what climbing "is" both in terms of a net export of how rocks are climbed and in what social groupings. Just the venue in the typical gym which puts climbers side by side and waiting in lines implicitly illicits competitive instincts. Comps make explicit those aspects of the game that were always implied and assumed by everyone involved. This also goes to the matter of whether you consider climbing an art or a sport. As someone that always focused on first ascents, I view it with this logic: The only tangible product of a sport is an abstract numerical score - say "16 to 8". Observing it after the fact it tells you nothing about the game itself or how well it was played. Were there no errors or a hundred. Did they play hard or weakly. Bottomline is there is no way to tell what really went into and was invested in the endeavor by looking at a score. Art on the other [usually] leaves an concrete product. If you hear a Mozart Concerto, see the Mona Lisa, or read a great novel you get an inherent sense of what that artist must have gone through to birth that product - it is fairly self-evident. Climbing shares that with art. If you stand at the base of the Nose on El Cap you instantly get a sense of the level of skill, daring, and committment that must have gone into climbing it. And the only real objection I have with climbing comps is they artificially impose an unnatural numerical abstraction on a product that is very concrete in it's own right; that and they burn the kids in with what I consider an entirely wrong mindset and approach to something I consider sacred. Joseph -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Regenold Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 1:39 PM To: Joseph E. Healy Cc: Subject: Re: Stephen Regenold Gear Junkie: Survival Pak Do you have an electronic copy of "The Evolution of Ego in Eden" by chance?Sounds interesting. On 3/2/06, Joseph E. Healy wrote: > As an odd aside... > > Did an article in the 70's for Climbing Mag called: > > "The Evolution of Ego in Eden" > > I meant to follow it up over the succeeding decades with: > > "The Mechanization of Ego in Eden" (bolting / drills) > > "The Emulation of Ego in Eden" (gyms) > > "The Socialization of Ego in Eden" (suburban pop culture) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Regenold > Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 1:23 PM > To: Joseph E. Healy > Cc: > Subject: Re: Stephen Regenold Gear Junkie: Survival Pak > > Thanks, Joseph. > > --Stephen Regenold >> > On 3/2/06, Joseph E. Healy wrote: > > Oh, and add: > > > > Safety - 70's individual responsibility > > - 00's "community" or group responsibility. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph E. Healy > > Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 11:54 AM > > To: Joseph Healy; > > Cc: > > Subject: RE: Stephen Regenold Gear Junkie: Survival Pak > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Healy > > Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 11:52 AM > > To: Joseph E. Healy > > Cc: > > Subject: Stephen Regenold Gear Junkie: Survival Pak > > > > Soviets speed climbing in 70's > > 1st sport climbing > Olympics > > Big Bang: Sport > Gyms > Coll. > HS > > 20yr gyms / sport > "socialized" > > Suburban pop culture > > HS competition > Harding's prediction > > Focus moves from the climbs to climbers > > HS competition not bad > growth afterburner = > > increased impact / more access problems > > Quote
mattp Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 I’m kind of with Joseph here. The sport is very different from what he and I started out doing thirty-five years ago, when it had a lot more to do with exploration and the “ecology movement” was new and Chouinard was promoting “clean climbing” while the latest Mt. Everest climb was reported in a Sierra Club book with as many pictures of Nepali villagers and flowers as actual climbing shots. Sure, Foops was a big sensation in the ‘Gunks, and John Gill was doing his thing, but it was generally accepted that any climber who was serious about the sport would eventually end up in the Tetons and a climb of El Capitan was kind of like the holy grail - not necessarily because they offered technical challenge any more than that they were dramatic pieces of landscape calling out for us to visit. The influence of climbing gyms and sponsors and competitions has been profound. I’m not going to say to say it is a bad thing – it is just different. Climbing at Mount Rainier is down, and I think though don’t have any statistics to show that it may be falling off slightly at Index or at traditional crags in Leavenworth like Castle Rock and Snow Creek Wall. The climbers who flock to Little Si or to the latest boulder garden are doing amazing things. I have tremendous respect for the athleticism of it all. I’d encourage them to go to the Bugaboos sometime, and see what the alpine environment and the just plain magnificance of such a place adds to the equation, but I realize they may well have little interest in my sense of aesthetics and they probably don't want to spend their vacation waiting for a week of rain to go away. Quote
olyclimber Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 I can't believe you guys are polluting spray with actual talk about climbing! Quote
DirtyHarry Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 You guys actually climb? Will you take me sometime? Can we go rappelin' too? Quote
cj001f Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Welcome to the Spectacle gentlemen, welcome to the Spectacle. Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 I know there is a counter at Exit 38 (I'm sure you have seen it to tucked into the woods next to the bridge). I'll bet in the last fifteen years since I first started climbing there the attendance has increased 1000%. I used to camp under Nevermind and climb through the night by campfire light with friends when Burdo was still bolting routes. Is there a way to get these numbers to compare with Rainier and other local "Big" mountains? Quote
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 sheesh... get over yourself, Joseph...those that want a "personal" journey can go run around in the mountains... Those that get off on comps can go crank on plastic...I watch our local team practice and it is totally rad to see the support and pushing each other that they are into...on top of that, my six year old is in the LittleRockers program...what he gets out of that is completely different from what he gets out of a camping/climbing trip with his doddering old fool of a dad...but both have value... Joseph, you strike me as very judgemental...you should look it in the light of skiing...going out with some buddies and skiing b/c vs. FIS world cup events...both rock in their own way... How can you say "wrong mindset and approach"????? This is very baffling to me... Quote
DirtyHarry Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 But, I do kind of agree with Mr. H in that I think kids may get wrapped up in the competition aspect of climbing instead of the enjoyment and freedom of the outdoors aspect. for example, I know a lot of folks who grew up ski racing, which is awesome and they are excellent skiiers. But a lot of them missed out on the fun of free skiing and adventuring because everytime they went skiing it was to train train train. But on the other hand, kids need structure and competition in general is probably good for them. Quote
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 i don't know...one of my best climbing buds (best not necessarily in ability but in terms of favorite) has either won nationals or placed in the top 5, placed 2nd in junior worlds in europe. But this kid digs Indian Creek and Yosemite over everywhere else he has been...Totally favors a weekend cragging trip to squish over going to a gym...prefers index to si and on and on... I think it is more the individual than the activity that is defining...people gravitate towards what they like and prefer so dissing someONE because of what they do is kinda lame. Quote
chucK Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 I find it interesting how one could get upset about this. Obviously, the gym-climbing thing is very different from what many of us enjoy about climbing. How does this defame climbing? Joseph, would you feel better if they just gave the gym-climbing/competition thing a different name? "Highpointing"? "Vert-racing"? If people want to exercise, if they want to "get kids off the streets" in the pursuit of an athletic endeavor, I'm all for that. So what if they call it "climbing" and the mindset in their sport is different from mine? Quote
DirtyHarry Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 so dissing someONE because of what they do is kinda lame. But you look so funny with that tape over your nipples. Quote
cj001f Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 So what if they call it "climbing" and the mindset in their sport is different from mine? Well, they often approach the outdoors with a more amusement oriented and less spiritual approach. Outdoors as playground vs. outdoors as temple. Not that that approach is inherently bad, but it does change things - more emphasis on bolts, mechanized access, etc. Since I don't particularly like mechanized access it's hard for me to say "so what". Climbing isn't alone - similar things are taking place in skiing (bile skiing), surfing (tow-in) and kayaking (waterpark/wavesurfing) to name a few. The locus of interest has shifted from a few long backcountry trips to many more short frontcountry trips, and daylong amusement. Quote
mattp Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Climbers do have some identity issues, though. Look at all those on cc.com who say "I'm an independant badass and I hate the government" when what they want is MORE beta on Liberty Ridge, a better plowed road to White River, and they take a cell-phone "just in case;" or look at those who refer to Yvonne Chouinard as a hero of some vanishing anti-establishment movement when he was the number one capitalist in the sport. Yes, I'm being a bit snide, but it is true: we all have a distorted picture of ourselves sometimes. Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 It's all part of a secret government conspiracy to get all our kids in line and to brainwash them. I think the Nazi's did something similar just before WWII so they could pick out the best soldiers for fighting in the Alps. Quote
JayB Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Seems like most people who climb in the gym will eventually want to take things outdoors. Some will stop at bouldering, others will be attracted to heavily bolted sport routes - others will be attracted to the big stuff. If I'm not mistaken Caldwell and Rodden came out of the gym and have done okay for themselves. I think what kind of climbing that people aspire to has a lot to do with what they were into before climbing. Most people I know that were into backpacking, mountains, etc before getting into climbing tend to be drawn to alpine routes, and look at sport climbing/bouldering as the first leg of that journey. People who weren't into the mountains beforehand aren't as likely to go this route. Quote
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Caldwell did not come out of a gym...his pop started him off... Quote
JayB Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 I don't think that the spiritual vs. fun side of outdoor stuff is mutually exclusive. Lots of folks who ski-tour one weekend and hit the resorts the next, do some hairball creek boating one weekend and go playboating the next, etc. Maybe the equilibrium has been shifting towards the fun side for the last 20-30 years, but there's plenty of dudes from the scraggly-beard era who have made the shift along with the rest of the population. Quote
cj001f Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Seems like most people who climb in the gym will eventually want to take things outdoors. Really? I work with people who have "climbing" birthday parties for their kids. $5 that maybe 20% ever climb independantly outside. And I agree with mattp on the climber identity issues Quote
chucK Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Well here I think you are talking about competition for finite resources among "my kind of climbing" and "their kind". I think if the gym climbers have a totally different idea of what is fun and good, then you'll probably not have a problem, because then we will not be competing for the same resources. For example, I don't give a shit really of what those guys do to places like Exit 38. The problems happen, paradoxically, when one tries to teach these guys the "true" way. They find they like some aspects like the great outdoors, but perhaps don't share other values. When "they" start trying to change stuff that "we" have long considered ours, that's when the problems begin. Then, Mattp's post starts really muddying the waters of "them" versus "us". Oh well. Quote
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 ... For example, I don't give a shit really of what those guys do to places like Exit 38. ... hear hear! they can and did grid bolt that hillside, but who cares! I really don't... Quote
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