plexus Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Just cruising on the Cascade Crags Web site, after Scot'gucci posted the link to it on a thread. On their custom outdoor trips page, they list among the other required equipment, belay device (no figure 8s). What's up with that? Is there something that I don't know and should retire my figure 8? When I learned to climb back in the mid 80s that's all there was, unless you want a hip belay. Nowdays I use an ATC but have my Figure 8 on a gear loop as my backup. And in certain scenarios, I like my figure 8 better (cleaner rappel) than an ATC. Being a former climbing instructor, I've learned to loath gri-gris and have seen ppl pick up bad belay hbits because of them. I've used a reverso once and am still undecided about it. But c'mon people, what have you got against a climbing institution —— the Figure 8 Next think you're going to tell me is I shouldn't pack in with me the next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Schuldt Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 They twist the living shit out of the rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigA Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dave Schuldt: They twist the living shit out of the rope. I've never used one, but I know people who have and this is exactly what they say. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backcountrydog Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 being a climber in wankers clothing...or is it wanker in climbers clothing?? regardless, i have learned to loathe the figure 8 and love the gri-gri... seriously though, i think the atc is much better at catching big lobs. 'locks off' with ease and i do use the term 'locks off' loosely cause it really doesnt lock off now does it? i think the tests show that there is more slippage when catching a fall w the 8s. i dont hate them i just think that modern belay devices do a better job. and they do twist the rope more so than the other devices ive used IMHO. but the golden rule about all of them: there only as good as the person using them. and with a compitent belayer: the gri-gri is king Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle_Tricky Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 All I know is that I was being belayed at Leavenworth by a Vertical World employee using a gri-gri. I took a leader fall and kept falling...and falling. Finally I said something like "hey, anytime you feel like catching me, feel free." Or maybe I just screamed "FUCK!!!" Anyway, only then did she lock me off. Freaked me out, and I've been wary of being belayed with a gri-gri since. [ 10-13-2002, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Uncle Tricky ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoker Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 I did some slab climbing with a guy who belayed me using his figure 8. He said that he could pull in slack faster with an 8 and so was a little better for belaying when long falls could occure. I wouldn't know for sure as I didn't fall that day. We were on the Apron, adventure climbing? and I soon got off route. 100ft of gearless climbing later and I didn't think that a figure 8 or a tuber would of made a difference in a fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Uncle Tricky: All I know is that I was being belayed at Leavenworth by a Vertical World employee using a gri-gri. I took a leader fall and kept falling...and falling. Finally I said something like "hey, anytime you feel like catching me, feel free." Or maybe I just screamed "FUCK!!!" Anyway, only then did she lock me off. Freaked me out, and I've been wary of being belayed with a gri-gri since. I've witnessed a similar incident. No belay device is safe in the hands of an idiot. [ 10-18-2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: pope ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Plexus, The "institution" of the figure-8 as the "only", or premiere belay device of the 1980's is a myth. True, many climbers used figure-8s as belay devices, but the figure-8 was never designed or intended for belaying. It was designed and intended as a rappel device. The manufacturers who supplied printed instructions for their products actually warned against using the figure-8 as a belay. Some manufacturers produced figure-8s with a slot instead of a round hole at the small end, and recommended using the slot as a "sticht" style belay plate. As a rescue instructor and accreditation reviewer for the AMGA in the late '80s, I had the opportunity to interact with guide trainers from the UIAGM. Those folks were distressed to see American "professionals" using the figure-8 as a belay. They had results from engineering laboratories (which they shared with us) which demonstrated pretty conclusively the inadequacy of the hip-belay and the figure-8 for holding serious falls. At that time, 1987, the only acceptable belay for a UIAGM certified guide in Europe was the Munter Hitch! Of the latest generation of belay devices, I prefer the ones with the v-slots, for example the Trango "jaws", the Omega-Pacific SBG, or the Cassin "logic". These provide significantly more stopping power than the classic plate or tube, while retaining the "foolproof" simplicity of those devices. I am viscerally suspicious of devices with moving parts like the gri-gri. Save your money. -Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 i am just curious whether you think that you need the "v-type" opening as i have belayed some pretty large whippers and have never had any serious slippage withthe standard ATC or the newer reverso... have you had this kind of slippage? or it it more for catching when you didnt react quick enough? also would this "v-type" put a dramatically larger stress on the rope considering that it has such a sharper bend? dunno... [ 10-13-2002, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Fence Sitter ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_J Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 figure 8: 1. Twisted rope, 2. Allowes too much rope to slip on a fall(definately need leather gloves to stop a fall with the 8), 3. When rappiing on skinny icy ropes you better use a 'biner on the leg loop after coming out of the figure 8 or you will be sliding a lot faster than you want. 4. I believe most if not all are cast Al, so if you drop one its shot as far as I am concerned. 5. There are plus sides to fig. 8's but why bother when there are much better devices out now. By the way if you are hardcore about your figure 8, don't feel bad I saw two guys climbing this spring in Leavenworth and BOTH used the first method I was introduced to...hip belay and a "biner wrap to rap off of climbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Fence-sitter As far as I can tell, the v-slot type devices don't create any tighter bend in the rope than a standard atc. what they do do is increase the area of contact between the rope and the device, thus adding more friction, and generating more stopping power. I tend to prefer double-rope belays with skinny ropes, and I believe I can feel substantial difference between the v-slot devices I've used and the standard atc/tube. However I haven't performed any rigorously measured comparison testing. As far as catching falls, I doubt if I'd notice much difference at fall-factors lower than about 1.0. Since I have yet to see a belay-device marketed that has, in formal testing, produced braking force approaching the impact force of a dynamic rope, I'm happy to take all the braking force I can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Excuse Me! Belaying with an eight does not twist the rope at all. As long as you do it properly and pull a loop through the small end and lock it into your main 'biner. I also think that it provides a good amount of friction and will not slip (much) in any but a hard fall. In that case some slip is usually a good thing. I would only used a forged 8...and they are readily available. All of the above being said assumes that an idiot is not using the eight in the rappel mode for belaying; which I think is implied in some of the above posts. I use different devices in different situations. I certainly don't think that an 8 is the best for all cases but it is good for most. The one thing I like the best about it is that you can feed rope very fast, maybe faster than any other device. This is particularly useful when belaying a leader you can see just before he/she pulls rope for the clip. An aware belayer can make it seamless for the leader and still keep the rope tight for all but the last second. An 8 demands a little more attention than most devices, so it is not best for a beginer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plexus Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 I've never had problems with rope twisting so much with a figure 8. It's all about knowing how to feed the rope and how its packed when not in use. Haireball, it's interesting to read what you said about the figure 8 not to be used as a belay device and only for rappel. Is there any literature available about this anywhere? And I do belay with gloves in certain situations -- such as trad lead with long runouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch-a-Go-Go Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Ugh. I retired my fig. 8 around 10 years ago. Yes they DO twist ropes. Or at least they did on me but maybe I don't know how to use one. Anyway, I don't care because there is much better gear out there. I'm partial to the Kong Robot for rapping but I don't know if they make it anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 The best reason to use a figure 8: because if you are near the top of Mr. Natural on GP apron and take a fall and it's clipped on you gear loop and it happens to be between your hip and the rock as you slide about 30 feet (rope stretch) you don't rip the shit out of yourself and actually finish the climb. Try that with an ATC or Gri-Gri!! [ 10-15-2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: David Parker ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 Figure 8, if used in "Rappel" mode with the biner clipped through the small hole, can slip down over the gate of the biner. Then if it is loaded it cross-loads the gate and can easily break it due to leverage. Its real easy to demonstrate this yourself with a fig-8 and belay biner. just let the small hole slide down a bit so it is over the gate, then crank the big end towards you and note which way the little end exerts force. At least two people died in exactly this fashion when their belayer broke the belay biner while holding a fall, in Britain. It was written up in High Mountain Sports mag. I dont think it got nearly the coverage over here, Ive never seen this style of accident discussed in Climbing or R&I or even ANAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spew Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 The figger 8 from old school: You can lock it off by simply flipping the rope over. If you get an HB or CMI they are anodized and will not leave alluminm shavesings in your rope making your rope last longer and you will not get dirty hands . Only idiots belay in rap mode on dynamic belays Rap mode is for alpine. The 8 is multi frictional it can be adjusted in rap or belay for different circumstances Lowering puts kinks or twists in your rope not the figger 8 If your useing an 8 your old school or a newbeeee [ 10-16-2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: spew ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Uncle Tricky: All I know is that I was being belayed at Leavenworth by a Vertical World employee using a gri-gri. I took a leader fall and kept falling...and falling. Finally I said something like "hey, anytime you feel like catching me, feel free." Or maybe I just screamed "FUCK!!!" Anyway, only then did she lock me off. Freaked me out, and I've been wary of being belayed with a gri-gri since. That is what's known as the "dynamic belay." They actually teach it at the VW, eh Lambone?. [ 10-16-2002, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: mattp ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 8's send about one twist per 10-12 foot of rope on the rappel, ATC's about a third of that. I don't know about gri-gris but these see more complicated than necessary, unless you're having a newbie belay you. 8's are not good for belaying. For simplicity just take an ATC for belaying and rapelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 ATC vs. Trango Pyramid, i like the pyramid better. doesnt heat up as much rappelling and can flip it backwards for more friction. also doesnt wear as fast as atc and the keeper loop is stronger and doesnt break suddenly like the atc does, or did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 "I've never had problems with rope twisting so much with a figure 8. It's all about knowing how to feed the rope and how its packed when not in use." The figure 8 does twist the rope considerably more than other belay devices. If the tuber/ATC is oriented correctly it will produce little, if any, twist in the rope. I VERY often see people not orienting the tuber/ATC correctly...when not properly oriented it will also twist the ropes, though no where near as much as the 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gym_rat Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I used an 8 for a while. Belay extremely well in plate mode, but the damn thing slides down the rope when you belay someone up a climb, facing out. They do twist the rope, but so does any device I've tried. Now I use the ATC, it's light, simple, and works well. As for Grigris, they do encourage bad belay habits, but if you ever give me a belay on Chain you'll want one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spew Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 Oh yeah! (buckets)atc ect. not only do you get aluminum shaveings from the device you also wear out and get shaveings from the Locking carabiner. Try treading that atc with gloves on ,and what up with that cable? On an alpine route on easy ground when your partner is moveing fast the 8 in rap mode can reel in the slack much faster When you want to free hang lock off, just flip the rope accross, Buckets rap the rope around your leg [ 10-16-2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: spew ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STORER Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Figure-8's are more heavy then an ATC. More expensive. But my biggest complaint is they're too loud on my rack. I'll stick with my ATC. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 If you wind up in a situation were you have to use one, I've found that putting a finger between the lines on my brake hand as I rappel keeps out the twists effectively. I also make sure to rappel the 8's first, and have someone with an ATC or similar rappel to ensure the lines are straight before trying to pull the rope. Helps to run the ATC the full length of the rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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