NW Forest Pass Ticket

[rbw1966]

Then I guess one out of two isnt bad for the pass.

 

Edit: I forgot to claim my right to post beyotches

Edited August 23, 2004 by rbw1966

[goatboy]

It's interesting to me, and more than a little bit hypocritical, to log onto a discussion website such as this one -- a place you go in order to hear other people's ideas, and share your own -- and then tell people to STFU.

 

If you don't want to hear other people's ideas, then why in the world would you bother to log on, and double click on things that open up to show you other people's ideas?

 

Wouldn't that be like paying for a ticket to a concert and then being surprised at all the noise and screaming at the musicians to be quiet?

[RuMR]

I'm so desparately trying not to type

an S

then a T

followed by an F

being chased by a U

 

But i won't cuz this isn't in spray

[priapism]

Hey jdog, here's the link from a previous thread about the NW Forest Pass.

 

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/80743/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1/vc/1

 

I have several posts in there about it, you should find some useful info if you want to wade through it all. I went to the initial hearing after recieveing my violation notice, and then actually had a full trial several months later for mine.

 

USFS

[rbw1966]

well. . what was the outcome?

 

I almost did the same thing RumR

[marylou]

Coupla things:

 

1. At least in Washington, the FS isn't really in the business of timber sales anymore. I'm sure you know they don't keep the money they get from timber sales anyway. Seems since the FS doesn't generate a lot from timber sales anymore, the Congress is less than forthcoming with the money they need to run the forest.

 

2. No, I am not currently using the public education system, but I did as a kid, and I'm happy to pay my share to help other peole's kids get an education.

 

3. I do follow the stewardship and fee demo threads pretty regularly around here, and anyone who knows me might say I'm a fairly active citizen WRT forest conservation issues. I find the conversations entertaining, but sometimes after a while I see a lot of whining about a 30 dollar pass for something we all use a LOT. I pay money for a fishing license, why wouldn't I have to pay for FS TH parking? I don't know, it seems that as we Eymanize our regular taxes, we're going to have to find other ways to pay for things. The money to maintain the roads, trails, and services isn't going to fall out of the air.

[iain]

Yes, money does not fall out of the sky. However, I do not think it is appropriate to use parking fees collected at "undeveloped" trailheads primarily used by wilderness users to pay for new boat ramps, for example, or elaborate "labor day camping sites" on USFS land. I hate to hear that the USFS is hurting for money when I see a brand-new enormous log cabin-style ranger station in Detroit, OR. Now I'm not sure this is happening or not, but if it is, I think it is wrong. Again, I pay federal taxes to cover this.

[Ricardo_Montalban]

Seems since the FS doesn't generate a lot from timber sales anymore

FS timber sales have ALWAYS been a huge net loss.

 

I pay money for a fishing license, why wouldn't I have to pay for FS TH parking?

fishing license $$ go to the DFW. I have tried for years to find out where the Forest Pass funds go to no avail. are they going towards the trails and TH's I use? probably not. I'd have no problem paying if they did.

[marylou]

The FP money stays in the district where you buy the pass.

[Ricardo_Montalban]

how is it divied up?

[willstrickland]

The issue that I hear alot of people raise, climbers in particular, is that the FS will not leave well enough alone if they see a fee opportunity.

 

An example: A dirt pullout and unmaintained trail that lead to a backcountry climb. There is no current expense of upkeep, because there is nothing there to keep up. The users of said area don't want or need any "facilities" added, especially if it is going to require a fee. The agency who regulates the area will eventually sense a revenue possibility and add a kiosk/sign, perhaps a pit toilet or trash can, and start charging. They will argue that "too many people were using the area, we had to control the human waste". I'll give you 50/50 odds that if there is a pit toilet placed there, it will either be out of paper or locked over half the time.

 

People rebel because the agencies will disingenously exploit revenue opportunities under the guise of providing you with a service, and they will continue to do this until there is no opportunity to recreate on public lands by means of low impact activities for free (I consider photography, day hiking, most types of climbing, low impact).

 

I would be interested to see what the budget numbers of the FS would look like if you didn't have timber sales. My sense (and this could be completely off base) is that by the time the FS has a timber sale and does all the prep work such as bidding/contracting/environmental assesments, appeals, road subsidizing....they LOOSE a ton of money. Timber from USFS lands makes up a relatively small part of the timber industry anyway. Get rid of all logging on USFS lands, cut all the staff related to timber sales. Then go ahead and get rid of the rec fees and enforcement that goes along with it. I imagine there would be plenty of money to actually manage the forests and keep the roads in decent repair.

 

I could be wrong. I know there is one cc.com person who work for the USFS, maybe he will weigh in (I won't name him because I don't think he's ever stated it publicly).

[Alex]

I imagine there would be plenty of money to actually manage the forests and keep the roads in decent repair.

 

All natural resource management agencies (I've worked for USFS, USFWS, BLM, and volunteered for NOCA) have crazy thin budgets in the last 20 years in my experience. There is very little revenue in natural resources (for any party), while the yearly management cost (consider fire budgets for Western states alone!) is very high. Its true fire budget comes out of the general fund while typical resource activities are funded differently, but the net result is that as agency budgets get cut, the agencies increasingly rely on 1) volunteer work by volunteer trails crews, prison crews, and so on and 2) other forms of revenue, like the fee demo project.

 

Some solutions that agencies have had to resort to recently is the full on closure of historic monuments and such. Other things is the increase in park entrance fees. The USFS is trying the fee demo (which I would speculate milks alot more money from average 2x-a-year-weekend-hiker than it does from many of the climber types here who are in the mountains 50 days a year). I am not condoning it, but just trying to offer the perspective of someone who tried to make a career in natural resource management and failed for the very reasons that surround the fee demo project.

[chris]

So I got a $50 ticket down at Mt. Adams a couple of months ago for not displaying my NW forest pass. I blew it off not thinking much about it, but now i have recieved an official court summons down in vancouver. To me this is f-in ridiculous. I actually had a pass, but forgot to display it.

 

Frankly I don't want to waste my time in driving down to fight this stupid ass ticket, but i also don't feel like I should have to pay the damn thing because I actually have a freakin pass. I figure they will require me to show a receipt for the purchase of that pass if I wanted to fight it, but I did not save the reciept.

 

I am curious what other people have done when they have gotten these tickets and subsequent summons? Should I blow it off, fight it, or just pay it.

 

I am pissed. This whole forest pass thing is out of f-in control.

This happened to me on Mt. Hood. Here's what I did: photocopied my pass, and wrote a polite letter explaining that I missed the posted sign at 3am and was in possession of a forest pass. The ticket was summarily excused. Good luck.

[willstrickland]

I don't disagree with you Alex. As it stands now, they don't have enough in the budgets for these items.

 

But my point is that if you simply got rid of the timber sales and their associated costs to the agency, you could still cut the overall agency budget while increasing funding for resource mgmt to the point that these trailhead type fees could be abolished. To the public, I see that as positive all around, to the timber industry...which has plenty of money to lobby your congressional "representatives", it would obviously be a negative. And the FS employees who got cut would be screwed.

[Off_White]

I used to hang a sign from my mirror saying I was having a religious experience in nature. Never got a ticket but that doesnt mean it worked.

 

I have also parked at a number of trailheads with no pass or permit and not been ticketed. I got a warning notice one time at Santiam Pass.

 

I tried the "for religious purposes" on the Teanaway a few years ago headed into Stuart, got a ticket for my trouble. I argued via snail mail with the ranger for about three rounds, bitching about subsidized logging and subsidized mainstream religion, and in the end we agreed I'd buy a $5 pass for that day. Ranger argued that in his district (Cle Elum) they didn't have any money losing timber sales, but I never did the research to refute him. He also said the "religious purposes" thing was not a valid exemption.

 

One thing to note, if you park before the "entering a fee use area" sign, you don't need the pass. Usually it means you'll walk an extra 1/4 mile, ain't no big thing. With my "Northwest Forest Pass: Don't Buy It" bumperstickers on everything I drive, I don't expect I'll get away with parking in the lot w/o a permit.

 

The fucking permits piss me off no end. Fight the power indeed.

[EWolfe]

I just got the $50 ticket this weekend at Snow Creek Lot. I forgot to park on the road.

I am a weakling, so I will pay it...

[Stefan]

I love the Mildred Lakes signs in the Olympics at the trailhead.

 

Top sign says: Trail Not Maintained.

 

Bottom sign says: Trail Park Pass Required.

[slothrop]

One thing to note, if you park before the "entering a fee use area" sign, you don't need the pass. Usually it means you'll walk an extra 1/4 mile, ain't no big thing.

 

This has worked for me at the Stuart Lake TH on a weekend, though like the man says, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" w/r/t the rangers of mass ticketing.

[ryland_moore]

I would be interested to see how much money the FS spends on salaries for patrols at THs. I would hope that they do not hire extra staff just to write people tickets and that these "ticket writers" have many other job responsibilities. If not, then herein is just another example of the FS spending money to reimburse the expense. If they are so strapped for cash, then this is a very foolish way to spend their tight budgets. Anyone know the answer?

 

Also, in a previous thread on this subject, there was a link to a website that had a hanging card you could put on your dash or rearview mirror that stated you were in the area for purposes other than recreation and were therefore exempt. I have placed this on my car several times and not once been ticketed, including this weekend at eightmile. Could just be dumb luck. Finally, isn't this process being abolished this October?

[marylou]

Just curious, Ry, if you are not up there for recreation, than what for? Typically they give you a pass if you are doing TM, only other thing I can think of is maybe you are doing resource work, eg counting animals or trees? Otherwise you'd need a pass.

[sobo]

OK, I'll admit it, I'm cornfoozed...

 

I thought that this past March/April, the Access Fund, along with other supporters, won the "repeal" of the NW Forest Pass on FS lands (only?) thru Congressional petitioning. Is that not correct? Beginning in October, the NWFP is kaput on FS lands?

 

I know that doesn't help those now being ticketed, but isn't this crock of shit circling the drain?

 

My own personal view: I bought a pass the very first year it came out, thinking the logic of what was being said about the pass was true. I later tuned in to various websites and heard conservationist lectures that caused me to change my opinion. I never bought another one after the first year. And I drive around with that original pass still in the window, just to piss 'em off/make a statement.

 

I've never been ticketed, but have gotten warnings on at least two occasions, maybe three. I wrote letters, based largely in part on material culled from Scott Silver's site, to the FS and flatly stated I refused to pay, citing the myriad of reasons provided on Scott's site. I have never heard from the FS since, and this was at least two or three years ago.

 

Granted I didn't usually go to oft-trammelled THs, and even less so now that I'm a daddy to a two-year-old. But from what I've seen at the THs where I do go, my money hasn't ended up there.

 

PS: I do pay the $5/day parking fee at State Parks (like at Peshastin Pinnacles, say), because I can actually see what my money has bought (working toilet complete with TP, irrigated lawn, picnic tables, gravel parking lot, etc.).

[sobo]

I just got the $50 ticket this weekend at Snow Creek Lot. I forgot to park on the road.

I am a weakling, so I will pay it...

 

From the Lost and Found forum: Lost Trekking Poles

Drove off and left them in Snow Creek parking lot on Saturday near trailhead.

Please PM me if you picked them up and are a kind soul.

 

Jeezus, E, it's been an expensive weekend for you, eh?

[cj001f]

Just curious, Ry, if you are not up there for recreation, than what for? Typically they give you a pass if you are doing TM, only other thing I can think of is maybe you are doing resource work, eg counting animals or trees? Otherwise you'd need a pass.

 

If you are in the woods for "religious purposes" you don't need a pass (no joke).

 

There was at least one GAO Accounting study that showed the $ spent on enforcing Feedemo were equal to the $ gained from fee-demo. I love things when the beauraucrats win

[Skeezix]

Interesting thread. I won't buy a pass. If you are ticketed and challenge it in court, rather than claiming you were there for religous purposes, simply deny that you were there for recreation purposes. It seems that it would be the ranger's burden to prove that you WERE there for recreation purposes. I used to carry a ticket book for the NPS in NCNP. We always used tickets as the very last compliance tool. I did get ordered by my boss to write a ticket once, and it was for a party-size violation by a guide with a commercial permit. I felt terrible because I had to write the ticket to the poor kid who had been sent out with an oversized party by his boss. The trail pass came out after my tenure as a climbing ranger in NOCA was over, but I know I would be loathe to write any cites for such a funky law.

Where are our lawyers on this issue? The problem with ignoring a cite/summons is that it won't go away and could ruin your day at a traffic stop when they run you and "Failure to Appear" comes up...

 

I'm going to go have a religous experience.

[iain]

I like the idea of volunteering time on trails to get a pass. Maybe they should make the pass un-buyable and one has to put in some time in some capacity to get one? Or is that too much like Communism?