j_b Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Fairweather said: A Xenophope? this is an example of your xenophobia: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB23&Number=228296&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 see your name down there? If peace can only be acheived through military victory, and I now believe this to be so, I hope Isreal wins this, however, is an example of your extremism my attempts to label you a "racist", and "nazi", were meant to illustrate and impress upon you the visciousness of such labels...labels which liberals like you throw out on an all-too-frequent basis. How did it feel? bullshit, it was a pathetic attempt at shutting me up, which demonstrates your anti-democratic convictions. this is what you do best, bait any liberal as unamerican, traitors, anti-semite, comunist and what not. pretty disgusting if you ask me. it makes total sense why you'd be sensitive to being called a nazi. so, you did not feel like discussing the article i linked? is history too damning for you? Quote
AlpineK Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 I have a hard time seeing Isreal as the agreived party After all the country was full of Palestinians till after WW2 when Jewish people started immigrating in droves and kicking the Palestinians off their land. Quote
Dwayner Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 First of all....it's ISRAEL, not "Isreal". You want to know what is real? Israel is and its not going anywhere so it would be very wise if the other entities in the region would come to their senses and make peace as did Egypt and Jordan. It was a very brave, smart and productive move for both countries. Furthermore, although their methods involve killing themselves, the so-called "suicide bombers" are (as has been occasionally pointed out), actually "homicide bombers", who get on buses, go to discos, shopping malls, pizza parlors, etc. and INTENTIONALLY and randomly kill anyone who happens to be there including babies in strollers, old folks, children of all ages, etc. The world would be more impressed by genuine demonstrations of peaceful protest rather than 30 years of violent "Palestinian" mayhem involving hijackings of airplanes, cruise ships, Olympic athletes, massacres in European airports, etc. and the stunts regularly pulled across the borders. Quote
Dwayner Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 AlpineK said: I have a hard time seeing Isreal as the agreived party After all the country was full of Palestinians till after WW2 when Jewish people started immigrating in droves and kicking the Palestinians off their land. Sorry, Alpine K....you don't know your history. Jews have been living there for 3000 years. Jerusalem was their capital from about 1000 B.C. until 70 A.D. when the Romans wrecked the city. For centuries, the territory named "Palestine" (derived from the name of some of its other early inhabitants, the Philistines), was ruled by the Ottoman Turks. Jews, Muslims and Christians all lived there though under Islamic rule. Many Jews began to immigrate to the area in the late 1800's while still under Turkish rule which ended in WW1 when it became a British Mandate territory. (The Turks were German allies). The British gave the green light for large-scale Jewish immigration and a great many came in the 1920's and '30's well before the Holocaust. Lots of farms and communes were set up and a lot of desert and swamp lands were reclaimed. And, a lot of property was sold to them by Arab inhabitants as well. The British were actually double-dealing and making contrary promises to both the Arabs and the Jews. The Arabs complained that there were too many immigrants and the Jews (a good many of them European) and the Arabs didn't always get along (cultural, religious issues, land disputes, etc.). The disputes grew and the British were in the middle. More Jews came to the area escaping the Holocaust and as refugees after WWII. After WWII with the creation of the UN, an attempt was made to solve the problem by dividing the Palestine region into two states: an Arab State and a Jewish State. The partition was approved in 1947 (although it didn't get the Arab votes) and in 1948, the state of Israel was declared. A war immediately broke out and Israel was successful in defending itself and ended up with a bit more land at the edges and a lot of Arabs ran away (some of them claim they were run off). The angry "Palestinians" of today live in refugee camps in what would have been the Arab state. Others live in the same land: territories occupied after wars in 1967 and 1973 (West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights). Israel also conquered the Egypt's Sinai Peninsua but returned it after its peace treaty with Egypt (a treaty that cost the brave Sadat his life at the hand of militant assassins.). As difficult as it may seem, I think the Arab-Israeli conflict can be resolved. There will likely always be a certain amount of violence on both sides as there are extremists on both sides that will settle for nothing less than the annihilation of the other. Hey! 20 years ago who could imagine that the Soviet Union would dissolve, Germany would be reunited, and that crappy regine in South Africa would be turned around???? It could happen! Quote
Jim Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 The history of Israel often gets fuzzy, depending on who is interperting. There's a great (detailed and long) history of settlement of the area in Jerusalum: One City Three Faiths by Karen Armstrong. The Zionists were very politically astute from the beginning and took whatever was offered them by the British/French, then the British, then the UN. They successfully lobbied the British and the UN to give them a piece of the holy land. The Arabs, thinking "no way is this going to happen" dug in their feet and didn't take part in the political process until too late. But there is blood on both sides. The fable that the Arabs just gave up their land peacefully is false. The prime example is the village of Derrassim (sp?). The was a large fraction of militant Zionists (who bombed the British at the central hotel - killed 17) who wanted to cleanse the holy land of the Arabs. In Derrassim they massacred over 100 men, women, and children - then went from village to village with loudspeakers on their cars threatening to do the same. Needless to say, people were scared and left, and the Zionists took over their property. So there's lots of blood on both sides. IMO the problems are the apparantly uncontrolable militant Arabs and the ruthless way the Israel government treats all Arabs, despite having a long history of oppression themselves. Quote
iain Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 all you have to do is remove all the rocks and they will have nothing more to throw. Quote
bunglehead Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Or chop the toprope anchors. They hate that. Quote
IceIceBaby Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 If the Western world did not have Israel …the Western world would be FUCKED!!!! Try reason with the Arab world….Iraq…hello…don’t u see… PLEASE stop hurting the hand that feed you …why do you think the English took over that region at the first place if Israel was not there sure that the USA already had it as the 51 star on the flag Quote
Dwayner Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Hey Jim....the Arab village you mentioned is Deir Yassin. It is a very famous incident and there are lots of conflicting stories on both sides. Here's a link, which from a pro-Israeli source, at least attempts to back up its version with contrary perspectives and citations. Deir Yassin Lots of bad deeds to go around in that region. I've spent time on "both sides of the fence" and both sides have their strong and weak points, however....they're are going to have to learn to live with each other. Dru...you're smartass comment, "rap bolt the wailing wall, that'll show them" is ignorant and rude. You obviously don't understand the profound meaning of that special place, now referred to as "The Western Wall". See all them folks...I bet A LOT of them are praying for PEACE! Quote
Dru Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 dwayner think about how the crowding at the base of the wall would be alleviated with a couple of bolted, chipped-bucket 5.6 jug ladders!! look at your bottom picture. people reaching out to try and jam that crack. but no gear!! if it was bolted they could send!!! better yet a via ferrata! Quote
bunglehead Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Wow, Jerusalem. It's been a long time since I've been there. I loved hanging out there. It's a crazy, chaotic, tight, cramped, loud, hectic city. Quote
Dru Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 in fact those folks in the bottom picture look a lot like comp climbers working a sequence from the ground! "So Moishe... gaston to the Sinai shaped hold and then?" "Well David, I think you'd have to throw an Egyptian there." Not to mention the guy in the doo rag in the background is probably Todd Skinner looking for an axle grease free line. Quote
IceIceBaby Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 AlpineK said: Fuck the Jews and Fuck the Palestinians. They're all a bunch of freeks fighting over bullshit. And more importantly Fuck Fairweather and FUCK THIS WORLD... ALLAH WHO ACKBAR.... Quote
Jim Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Dwayner said: Hey Jim....the Arab village you mentioned is Deir Yassin. It is a very famous incident and there are lots of conflicting stories on both sides. Here's a link, which from a pro-Israeli source, at least attempts to back up its version with contrary perspectives and citations. Deir Yassin Lots of bad deeds to go around in that region. I've spent time on "both sides of the fence" and both sides have their strong and weak points, however....they're are going to have to learn to live with each other. Dru...you're smartass comment, "rap bolt the wailing wall, that'll show them" is ignorant and rude. You obviously don't understand the profound meaning of that special place, now referred to as "The Western Wall". See all them folks...I bet A LOT of them are praying for PEACE! Thanks for correcting my spelling. I choose Karen Armstrong's account because she is a well respected mid-east scholar, not an Israeli site or Palasteian stite, which both put their spin on it. I'd suggest to anyone interested in the history of the muslin, christian, and jewish history of the area to pick give this book a read. It's very good. Too bad a land so holy to all three faiths is such a mess. But because it is so important all involved have such a stake. And once you read the book you understand that many of the important sites have no historical connection to facts. Quote
fleblebleb Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 OK, I realize Dwayner is not happy with the rap-bolting, and bolting on lead probably wouldn't work out any better, but I'm wondering how much the anti-sport climbing stance plays into the sentiment? Quote
Dwayner Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Dru said: in fact those folks in the bottom picture look a lot like comp climbers working a sequence from the ground! No it doesn't. It looks as if they are praying. "So Moishe... gaston to the Sinai shaped hold and then?" "Well David, I think you'd have to throw an Egyptian there." Not to mention the guy in the doo rag in the background is probably Todd Skinner looking for an axle grease free line. You don't get it, do you, pal. Maybe it's because this topic started in Spray. I suppose it's easy to ridicule and mock things you truly don't understand. Quote
Dru Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 fuck it... i have buildered on not just one but many churches over the years....i have climbed a "sacred, no access permitted" mountain on the sly...i betcha there could be some RAD MOVES on that wailing wall with a couple of bolts otoh the kaaba is reportedly all polished slick slopers and offers a poor bouldering experience although with up to a million spotters nearby you can probably take repeated falls if you so desire! Quote
erik Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 iain said: look at all the spotters for this project! dude that is beckfest 02'!!!! Quote
Sphinx Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 erik said: iain said: look at all the spotters for this project! dude that is beckfest 02'!!!! Quote
billcoe Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Dwayner said: "Dru...you're smartass comment, "rap bolt the wailing wall, that'll show them" is ignorant and rude. " Yeah Dru: 1 more smartassed remarque like that and you might have the unbiased, gentle members of this site take you out and try to Bibically Stone you. How dare you try to inject some humor into the discussion. This is serious and as all here can attest, some group should be killed over it. That part of the question looks like the crux of the debate here, let me know who that is when you all decide as I'd like to get the hell out of the way first. Not to sound unbiased here, but I like Israelis generally, although not when they intentionally use up all the hot water in a Nepali Villiage BEFORE ME (you know who you are!!) and every damn palestinian I've met has been to opposite of what our media portrais them to be. Fine people and good folks generally. But of course, I may be meeting the wrong class of people and it's clear from the learned discussion on this board that one of these groups of people is low-life shit. I will not be telling Kalid, my Palistinian neighbor that, as he is in that group of fine people of Palitinans. Now to the important stuff Dru: you know damn well those cracks on the Western Wailing Wall will protect with natural pro, keep those bolts out of there, you can see this is already a restless crowd, so stop throwing gasoline on the fire. This crowd will turn on you so fast if you try to turn it into a "support of sport route" thread. Now am I the only person who noticed that this Verbal WAR about Israel/Palistine started out as a mild discussion about Idi Amin? OK, I'm done, please pick up your weapons again and have it. It's about time somebody took this conflict on and fixed it, you all sound so smart, it should be easy for you all to get ahold of this issue and "poof" for ya know it, "FIXED" the Lion will be sleeping with the Lamb. About time: Bill Quote
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