gapertimmy Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 Survey!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? WTF is this shizzy in my mailbox this afternoon. From the University of Idaho, College of Natural REsources [snip] Dear Climber, We need your help understanding mountaineering in the Pacific Northwest. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH ..... Mailing adresses were drawn from wilderness permits and climbing registers throughout the NW ..... The results of this study will be used by Forest Service Wilderness managers. .... RETURNING THE ENCLOSED SURVERY WILL ALSO ENTER YOU IN A DRAWING TO WIN ONE OF *TWO* $50 REI GIFT CERTIFICATES! [/snip] Included in the packet is a 10 page questionaire about slogging volcanos, asking how many times i have attempted X peak, how many times i've summited X peak. The real interesting thing is amazingly the last 2 groups of questions ask me about whether or not i've gone up Mt. Adams, or Middle Sister. The names of the peaks in these questions are in BOLD, obviously filled in. It has been just over a month since i've been on both of these hills, the speed of this data collection process is mind bogling... i mean this is the FS we are talkin about here! What is this shite! Does the FS have no mercy? I fill out permits/wilderness registers fairly religously since becoming involved in SAR but this is just a bit over the top for me. Anybody else get this thing? I feel so dirty and violated Quote
Alpinfox Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 I don't sign registers and don't get permits. Therefore, no offensive paper in my box. Quote
gslater Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 A few weeks ago I was at the Top Spur TH on the west side of Hood when some dude from the U. of Idaho asked me to take a survey about wilderness area stuff. I filled it out for him. Seemed to be pretty focused on determining how "wild" people think the wilderness should be. Lots of questions like "How many people would you have to encounter on this trip before you felt it was interfering with your wilderness experience?" Quote
Norman_Clyde Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 I came down off the snow lake trail this afternoon (one of the most crowded trails in the state of WA, for you Oregonians) and there was a sign leaning against a stump, right at the trailhead, that said "Wilderness Survey". There were a few more lines about how completing the survey would help make the world a better place, etc. etc., so I looked around for a survey to fill out, but there wasn't one. I think the surveyor ended his/her shift and walked off without the sign. If this is the same survey you down in OR have seen, the spread of this thing is about as broad as any investigation of the backcountry community I have seen. Where did they get the funding to pay all these people to spread across the Northwest? Some deep pocket somewhere... makes me wonder if Big Timber or some other nasty global corporation is involved. Quote
sobo Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 Norman_Clyde said: ...Where did they get the funding to pay all these people to spread across the Northwest? Some deep pocket somewhere... makes me wonder if Big Timber or some other nasty global corporation is involved. Prolly the proceeds from that goddamn trailhead parking permit shite. Quote
offwidthclimber Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 Norman_Clyde said: makes me wonder if Big Timber or some other nasty global corporation is involved. nah... probably some grad student, or a professor who needs to publish and couldn't think of anything better to do. besides, i'd guess it's pretty easy to convince student assistants to kick it around the PNW for a summer doing some easy survey shit and climbing/hiking/fishing/etc for the rest of the time. GO VANDALS! glad to see the alma matter hard (hehe) at work (hehe)... Quote
Figger_Eight Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 As far as Mt. Adams goes, I've heard that they're thinking about putting climber limits on the South Side route, similar to what they do on St. Helens. Quote
kurthicks Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 the University of Idaho is doing research for the Forest Service funded by grant money. One thing they are looking at is "overuse" of wilderness on climbing routes (Hogsback, S. Sister, Adams esp.). I know the lady who is basically in charge of the program and it's not funded by Big Timber or anything like that. I'm really glad that you guys are being somewhat cooperative, they are grad students who are doing the research, not the FS! oh, one more thing, if you don't fill out a free wilderness permit you can get docked $100... i'm sure that i can pass along more info about the research if you so desire... Quote
offwidthclimber Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 wazzumountaineer said: i'm sure that i can pass along more info about the research if you so desire... sure... out of curiousity, i'd like to see the information. cheers, Quote
sketchfest Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 Yeah, I got one too. For a survey about the wilderness, they only really want to know about a couple of places: Hood, Adams, N. Sister Quote
rbw1966 Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 Every couple of years or so they talk about instituting limits on the amount of climbers on the South side of Hood. I wonder if this survey is going to be used in an effort to limit access there and elsewhere. Just what we need, more limits on use of public lands. Quote
cj001f Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 When I was up on Adams the 6th there was a guy from U of Idaho there asking people to fill out a use survey - lots of questions about wildness etc. Mostly I just filled in all the bubbles saying no permits. Quote
AlpineK Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 wazzumountaineer said: oh, one more thing, if you don't fill out a free wilderness permit you can get docked $100... i'm sure that i can pass along more info about the research if you so desire... Those permits are a bunch of fucking bullshit. I take one so I can show the man's lacky if I run into one, but I lie if I even fill out info. Fuck the Man Oh yeah and if you get into trouble just take it to court. You'll force the seasonal employee who hastled you and gave you a ticket to show up in court, which is usually really inconvienient for them. Quote
slaphappy Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 Last year while campin on the Coleman a ranger approached me with one of those surveys. Dude had pencils and everything. Sounds like the same kinda questions although they wanted to know mostly about Mt. Baker. On a side note; while parked at the Stuart Lake trailhead this past Saturday, I left my North west Forest Pass in another vehicle, so I put my wallet card on my dashboard. It clearly staes that it expires in Aug and has the issue # on it. I got a $50 ticket anyhow, "the Tool" said it wasn't a valid pass. This shit is gettin outta hand. Don't we pay these individual's salaries? Quote
nolanr Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 I got a ticket when I had a valid pass hanging from my mirror before. I photocopied my pass, sent a note saying "you made a mistake, I'm not paying and I'm considering this matter closed." Never heard anything after that, this was last summer. Yeah, pretty stupid if I bought the pass which I hate doing, then they ticket me anyway cuz they're not paying attention. Quote
gapertimmy Posted July 17, 2003 Author Posted July 17, 2003 You know, the new batch of annual passes really don't look that difficult to duplicate. One could just get some heavier stock green paper, get a photocopy and they'd be set. as for this survery, i'm sure it is a neat study, but i'm not going to fill it out. still spooks me out that the personal information was used in that way. i fill out wilderness permits mainly b/c if another party gets lost in the area, I may be of help to search parties if i saw them on my trip. I also understand the value of the data collected for back country usage as well, but I truly feel the strong armed tactics used by most backcountry patrollers (regardless of which agency they work for) is truly not the correct way of handling "violators". Quote
iain Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 You can fill out the Wilderness Permit w/o giving information if you want. Just fill it out and instead of putting the white sheet in the little box, just throw it away and carry the carbon copy with you in case you are asked to present it. FS employees most likely DON'T mind appearing in court, as they are usually paid double time for being there. At least with the FS court cases to which I have been witness. Those permits are for the FS to understand usage rates in wilderness areas, not as mailing list subscriptions. I received the same survey. Sounds like the forest park pass is more heavily enforced in Washington. I have yet to be "ticketed" but have received many warnings on my dashboard here in Oregon. The most offensive is when I get those tickets when I am in the area for a rescue or search, or the relatives of the victim get ticketed. Quote
kurthicks Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 gapertimmy said: I truly feel the strong armed tactics used by most backcountry patrollers (regardless of which agency they work for) is truly not the correct way of handling "violators". what kind of tactics have you witnessed before? the worst thing that i've ever encountered is a Ranger talking about Leave No Trace to someone with trash spread all over. I'm still trying to get more info about the research and it's importance, but my contact was out of the office when i stopped. hopefully i can get some more info later this week and pass it along Quote
AlpineK Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 FS employees most likely DON'T mind appearing in court, as they are usually paid double time for being there. At least with the FS court cases to which I have been witness. Actually they do since most of them are part time. By the time your summer ticket goes to court it's fall and the parttimers are off doing something else somewhere else. From experience they try and avoid going to court. At the very least if you put up a stink you can get your ticket cut in half. Quote
Fejas Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 I've gottin four parking tickets for not having a pass, and did nothing about them, still no word on them... they all said that if I buy a NW parking permit the ticket would be droped, but I never did.... I'm confused on what the point of writing a ticket is if the consiquences are not enforced... Quote
gapertimmy Posted July 17, 2003 Author Posted July 17, 2003 wazzu- my worst encounter was on the south sister slog. i had my dog with me and becky, mid august.... one of the head FS guys in the deschutes stops us on our way down. he lectured me for about 5 minutes about having my dog on south sister, and how his paws could get hurt. i assured him that i was watching his paws the whole time, and that he's an outdoor mutt that can hang. I hadn't filled out a wilderness permit that day (was new to the area and didn't know it was necessary), I told him i understood the virtues of the permit system, even shared with him that I spent time in the NPS doing similar work, but he was just very rude about the whole situation. wrote me a warning, but that didn't bug me, it was just the way he handled the situation. I've heard from others that have had similar experiences in the backcountry. I just feel that sometimes many public servants take an agressive approach to situations like these and it leaves the visitor with a bad feeling about the FS in general. Whenever i came across a "violator" down in yosemite, i just tried to be cool like the fonz, talk to them about their trip and ease into the lecture... i think some dudes just like to bust the cop 'tude and that imho has no right to be pulled in the wilderness. I understand that there are situations when the "law officer" approach must be used, but on a good backcountry citizen like myself? ok enuf rant. Do you work in the agency? we still doing the traverse? Quote
gregm Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 gapertimmy said: You know, the new batch of annual passes really don't look that difficult to duplicate. One could just get some heavier stock green paper, get a photocopy and they'd be set. or maybe scan the thing on a flatbed scanner and print it on a color printer. if you don't have any heavy paper fold it over and glue it. for extra points use photoshop to change the numbers around Quote
bunglehead Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 Fejas said: I've gottin four parking tickets for not having a pass, and did nothing about them, still no word on them... they all said that if I buy a NW parking permit the ticket would be droped, but I never did.... I'm confused on what the point of writing a ticket is if the consiquences are not enforced... I've heard mumblings about the lack of enforcement also. I think the Forest pass is total bullshit, and if I find out that they (USDA/USFS) have no way of enforcing it, I'll never, ever buy one again. They don't seem to have the fee program at all in the Umpqua NF. At aleast I've never seen one. Fuck the Forest pass "Demo Program" brought to you by the "Recreation Coalition of America" Quote
graupel Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 Even better than forging a pass is to contact your congressman. Help make this stupid program go away by placing a phone call like this Action Alert suggests: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB26&Number=213012&Forum=All_Forums&Words=2490&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=213012&Search=true#Post213012 If you already know who your representative is, you can find their direct phone number HERE If you need to look up who your representative is, you can do that HERE It only takes a couple of minutes if you find their direct line. Sometimes the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121 can be busy. The receptionists are always nice and patiently will take notes in order to relay your opinion. Make it easy for them and be brief though. Quote
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