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DaveD

Anchor questions

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Hey everyone. Just found the site and I think it's great.

 

I have a few questions about tying in and belaying from a anchor off of two bolts.

 

When tying in at a belay station do you tie in to the master point of the anchor or off one of the bolts? I have read that the best way is to tie into the master point with a figure 8 on a bight on the climbing rope. I have also heard that it is better to tie into a locker off one of the bolts and use the master point to run the belay threw. Any opinions?

 

Also when the second reaches the anchor, what should they tie in to? The master point? A bolt?

 

Any advice would be apreciated.

 

Cheers DaveD

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dont you think it would be better to be attached to two bolts rather than one....so i guess that is the master point...

never heard that term before.

clip two bolts as two is stronger than one.

bigdrink.gif

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depends on the clusterfuck around the bolt. its hard to make hard and fast rules since situations will dictate much of what youll do.

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John Long outlines something he calls the Atomic Clip in More Climbing Anchors. It's probably more commonly known as the Bowline on a Bite. Regardless, this is your ticket for hanging off two bolts. If you practice, it's quick and easy to tie. If not, it can be a bit cumbersome. Your second can clip into an inline figure eight or figure eight loop off the standing end.

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well, Ive had a looooong week, and Ive had a few beers this evening....but....

 

Wouldnt the main anchor point come from both bolts? So you would anchor into that point (daisy chain and/or clove hitch). Then you would redirect the anchor off the main point. In my short career, I have had the second (or as the second myself) clip into the main anchor point as well.

 

 

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Toast said:

John Long outlines something he calls the Atomic Clip in More Climbing Anchors. It's probably more commonly known as the Bowline on a Bite. Regardless, this is your ticket for hanging off two bolts. If you practice, it's quick and easy to tie. If not, it can be a bit cumbersome. Your second can clip into an inline figure eight or figure eight loop off the standing end.

 

Hmmm, now Im a bit confused. We dont have many bolted routes or anchors around here. Is it much different than placing your own anchors?

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Gotta second Toast and Mr. Long. The bowline on a bight and a directional figure eight are the shiznit for two bolt Smith-style anchors when you're swinging leads. Single pitch or changing leaders requires something more involved with a single point accesible to both climbers.

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Hey Catbirdseat and Dru are you masterpointing right now? yelrotflmao.gif

 

Just tie in the rope as direct to a bolt as you can. Use a clove hitch on a locker. If you don't trust the clove hitch, back it up with a somethin on a bight. If you've got double ropes repeat as above but with other bolt. If not, use a sling attached to the other bolt or the masterpoint smileysex5.gif

 

If you don't have a sling leftover at the top, it's probably because you use those deadly dogbone draws (you shouldn't hellno3d.gif).

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The Bowline on a bite technique is overly complicated and unnecessarily difficult to set up.

 

An easier technique that I use ( never seen it elsewhere) is to:

(1)put a locker on each bolt,

(2) clip in to one with a figure eight on a bight with a long bight (so that the distance from the carabiner to knot itself is greater than the distance to the 2nd bolt),

(3) clove hitch the locker on the 2nd bolt and adjust to equalize.

 

Bam bam. Quick and clean. Requires the absolute minimum of gear.

 

You can put a biner or draw through the body of the figure eight knot to belay through also.

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The Bowline on a bite technique is overly complicated and unnecessarily difficult to set up.

 

An easier technique that I use ( never seen it elsewhere) is to:

(1)put a locker on each bolt,

(2) clip in to one with a figure eight on a bight with a long bight

(so that the distance from the carabiner to knot itself is greater than the distance to the 2nd bolt),

(3) clove hitch the locker on the 2nd bolt and adjust to equalize.

 

Bam bam. Quick and clean. Requires the absolute minimum of gear.

 

You can put a biner or draw through the body of the figure eight knot to belay through also.

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John Long outlines something he calls the Atomic Clip in More Climbing Anchors. It's probably more commonly known as the Bowline on a Bite. Regardless, this is your ticket for hanging off two bolts. If you practice, it's quick and easy to tie. If not, it can be a bit cumbersome. Your second can clip into an inline figure eight or figure eight loop off the standing end.

 

I used to do that, and it rocked. But now I use the Self Equalizing Figure Eight Knot if I'm swinging leads. Works for 2 or 3 anchor points. Very fast, easy to tie, and self equalizes.

 

Both knots don't work well if you are not swinging leads. A Web-O_Lette or Belay-O-Lette is probably the best way to go when not swinging leads.

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Retrosaurus said:

The Bowline on a bite technique is overly complicated and unnecessarily difficult to set up.

 

An easier technique that I use ( never seen it elsewhere) is to:

(1)put a locker on each bolt,

(2) clip in to one with a figure eight on a bight with a long bight

(so that the distance from the carabiner to knot itself is greater than the distance to the 2nd bolt),

(3) clove hitch the locker on the 2nd bolt and adjust to equalize.

 

Bam bam. Quick and clean. Requires the absolute minimum of gear.

 

You can put a biner or draw through the body of the figure eight knot to belay through also.

 

So with this system the rope goes from one bolt to the other and you don't clip an extra clove back at your harness?

 

At Smith etc. I tend clip into one bolt with a Daisy, clove hitch the other and equalize. Maybe that's placing a lot of faith in the daisy.

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Retro- That's sweet. I use a similar setup but yours is way cleaner. thumbs_up.gif

 

Winter- I don't trust the dasiy anymore for anything but body weight. A big whipper could cause the sewn loops to zipper and shockload the whole system.

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Retrosaurus said:

The Bowline on a bite technique is overly complicated and unnecessarily difficult to set up.

 

Tying two knots is overly complicated? Clipping two loops is unecessarily dificult? yelrotflmao.gifyelrotflmao.gifrolleyes.gif Thanks, Twight.

 

 

Retrosaurus said:

An easier technique that I use ( never seen it elsewhere) is to:

(1)put a locker on each bolt,

(2) clip in to one with a figure eight on a bight with a long bight (so that the distance from the carabiner to knot itself is greater than the distance to the 2nd bolt),

(3) clove hitch the locker on the 2nd bolt and adjust to equalize.

 

Bam bam. Quick and clean. Requires the absolute minimum of gear.

 

You can put a biner or draw through the body of the figure eight knot to belay through also.

 

Hadn't heard of that method but it sounds interesting. Kind of like an american triangle using rope instead of webbing. Wouldn't that generate similar forces on each bolt to an american triangle setup (approaching 2x the load on the master point)? If my mental picture is right, you'd be generating a whole lot of force on those two bolts in a leader fall situation right off that belay. Sounds like it could get ugly if the anchor wasn't rerigged for the lead of the next pitch.

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J_Kirby said:

Retrosaurus said:

The Bowline on a bite technique is overly complicated and unnecessarily difficult to set up.

 

Tying two knots is overly complicated? Clipping two loops is unecessarily dificult? yelrotflmao.gifyelrotflmao.gifrolleyes.gif Thanks, Twight.

 

 

Retrosaurus said:

An easier technique that I use ( never seen it elsewhere) is to:

(1)put a locker on each bolt,

(2) clip in to one with a figure eight on a bight with a long bight (so that the distance from the carabiner to knot itself is greater than the distance to the 2nd bolt),

(3) clove hitch the locker on the 2nd bolt and adjust to equalize.

 

Bam bam. Quick and clean. Requires the absolute minimum of gear.

 

You can put a biner or draw through the body of the figure eight knot to belay through also.

 

Hadn't heard of that method but it sounds interesting. Kind of like an american triangle using rope instead of webbing. Wouldn't that generate similar forces on each bolt to an american triangle setup (approaching 2x the load on the master point)? If my mental picture is right, you'd be generating a whole lot of force on those two bolts in a leader fall situation right off that belay. Sounds like it could get ugly if the anchor wasn't rerigged for the lead of the next pitch.

I think he's eliminated the horizontal leg of the american triangle?...Should work ok...

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When you tie the cordelette to your anchors the bottom loop is the "master point"

 

If you worry about having the belay (like a Reverso) and you anchored to the same master point loop, clip the Reverso in above the knot instead of below. Its easier to belay that way too.

 

Personally I prefer to belay off my harness than off the anchor, but sometimes, eg when using the Reverso and 2 seconds you have to belay off the anchor.

 

But its all gear geek question anyways. Geek_em8.gif

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Retro - I dunno why you think the Bowline on a bight is complicated??? Anyhow, I use the technique you describe too. I made it up as far as I know, haven't seen it anywhere else either.

 

J Kirby - It doesnt make a ADT. Re-read it.

 

Winter - The rope doesn't go from one bolt to the other. The figure eight produces kind of a master point. The loop is clipped off to one bolt. One leg of rope coming out goes to your harness, and the other leg goes to the other bolt where it is cloved in.

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So one strand of the rope is tied off with a figure eight on a bight, which goes to one of the lockers, and the other is clove hitched to the other locker on the other bolt?

Damn, that sounds slick. I'll try it this weekend. I use the bowline on a bight, and the only thing I've noticed is that it sometimes take a little work to get both sides truly equalized.

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SB - Thanks for the clarification for winter, makes sense to me now. Sounds just as bomber as the Bowline on a bight but maybe easier to equalize. I'll have to give it a shot this weekend and see how it works for me.

 

I also like to add some adjustability to my distance to the power point when using the Bowline on a bight. It probably would work with sb/retro's method too. I tie the bowline (or Figure eight) an extra few feet from my harness and use a clove hitch to take out the extra slack, leaving my figure eight tie in as the backup. Then I adjust the clove hitch as necessary to move around the stance.

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I do the same thing as retro when I won't be belaying off of the anchor and will be swopping leads. I sometimes use a self equalizing fig8 and then clove hitch a third piece with the slack side of the rope. The only problem with this method is retreating from the anchor. It would be very difficult to escape the belay and go into a counterbalance rappel.

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Retrosaurus said:

(1)put a locker on each bolt,

(2) clip in to one with a figure eight on a bight with a long bight (so that the distance from the carabiner to knot itself is greater than the distance to the 2nd bolt),

(3) clove hitch the locker on the 2nd bolt and adjust to equalize.

 

Maybe a dumb question, but why the extra long bite? Is this to reduce the angle (and the forces upon each anchor point)? Just need some clarification, thanks.

 

P/S Snowboy, thanks for the elaboration. It didn't make sense till I read your post wink.gif

 

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Toast said:

Maybe a dumb question, but why the extra long bite? Is this to reduce the angle (and the forces upon each anchor point)? Just need some clarification, thanks.

 

Don't wanna speak for retro here, but yes, it is to reduce the angle.

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