Rodchester

"bigger crevasses"

The general ruyle on ice axe length is the steepr the terrain the shorter the axe, inversly the less steep the longer. Also, your height will factor in as well. When you are standing straight on flat ground let the axe rest in your hands with a loose grip. The spike should not extend down past your ankle bone. Again, shorter if getting on steep stuff. I am 72 inches and use a 70 cm. To each thier own...

Hmmm..sounds like you might be implying that a ranger told you a lie...or at least made it sound WAY worse than it actually is. Seems I've heard that once or fifty times before. Any one else have this problem?

ICEBaby I have not read the article yet...I will and will respond more fully then. However, my question to RH is what does the narrow scope and high specialization of climbing have to do with the globalazition of that segment of the economy? Are you saying it is bad? that somehow companies that can't competge should continue to offer climbers subandard gear at inflated prices? Sorry If I nee to read first..just curious.

ruddersbox: I think your advice is good for snow and ice...but this thread seems to me to be dealing with 3rd and 4th class alpine rock.

Rangers with rifles? Cheap, clean and efficient.

I'm with peter Puget....in a line can be protected with trad gear leave it be....any bolts set as protection for the leader on Ingals (and others) should be chopped and rechopped.

Doing a glisade in the Wind rivers I went right over a small but pointed rock that you couldn't see until it was too late. I felt it...but kept going. At the bottom my buddy says...your bleeding. Right through a pair of bibs, poly-ps, and cut a good size slice into my ass. Ooops. Twenty mile hike out...sore ass.

One thing: When most think couilor, a long narrow chute usually comes to mind. That is on ething the Luathold is not. It so wide and so obvious that some assume that that huge thing stareing right at them can't be it....it is. Not sure if this is what happened to you guys. When I did the Reid Headwall, whopper and I ran into three guys that thought they were on the Leuthold.

I read back over these posts and I need to clarlify something about Ingals Peak. Did someone bolt the route to protect it? Or are discussing the rap station bolts? If they did it to protect the route, that is BS and even I agree they should be chopped. Can someone clarify whether we are talking about Rap station bolts or pro bolts? Thanks And EriK...I do agree that a bivi for the sake of bivi on a classic route that would interfer with other climbers is not cool. There are too many other less traveled routes that would serve the purpose of the bivi experience without inteferring with others. [ 04-24-2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: erik ]

Colin: As far as the bolts on Ingals go...I assume you mean the rap station bolts? I think there is a difference between rap station bolts and bolts to protect the leader. The fewer bolts the better. But I can live with bolts at rap stations.

"fresh virgin granite void of cracks" What exactly do you mean by fresh virgin granite? I assume you are referring to a crag setting? Not alpine...right? Do you mean never been attempted? Assuming it is in a crag setting that is not used for other purposes and it is truely unprotectable by trad gear, I don't have a problem with bolting in sport routes. If it is 5.12 gear and the bolter can't climb it with gear, but could with bolts? Bolting it is BS. I really don't have a problem with sport routes or climbers...so long as they climb sport routes. Leave the trad to the trad. I clip bolts some times and I have fun doing it. But I am opposed to bolting trad routes. And I am opposed to bolting in the alpine setting. (with minor exceptions for a route that might require one or two bolts at unprotectable spots - can't mname any but I guess I could see it). I also place value in th first ascentionist's style. But a sporto bolting up a clearly trad line because he was first is BS. I am rambling...time for me to listen.

I do not need to pay to summit Mt. St. helens....I am a "over-snow vehicle"!!!!!!

A few years back we were half way Helens when a sled started roaring its way up to us, clearly pointed toward the summit. We were not happy. A decent sized group of climbers/hikers started yelling and waving our poles and axes at the asshole. He stopped and we all just verbally abused him. We toled him that a Ranger was a little higher up then us and that they had just confiscated a sled. Realizing he was surrounded by unfriendlies and that he might loose his seld (bluff) he turned around and got out off there. I am normally pretty tolerant. But I simply cannot stand these sleds. And they constantly go out side thier area. It just pisses me to no end that the FS would work so hard to enforce the trial park pass, the snow park pass, and the climbing permit, but do soooo little to the sleds that sooo clearly pollute and violate the rules soooo often. [ 04-22-2002, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

freeclimb9: What are your plans in the winds? and in the tetons? I have done the Winds from Pinedale (Elkhart park)to Dubois (Trail, Ring, & Torrey Lakes) via Indian pass and the Bull Lake basin into Dinwoody via Blaurock pass then out Dinwoody Canyon (Glacier Trial). It was fun. We hit a few big peaks on the way. I have always wanted to do a true traverse starting at south pass and going to towgatee pass....staying mostly on the divide and off trails.

But I have to often heard the "we have a class" as some sort of reason why I should get off a route or leave an area. To often I hear: "Um, hi. I'm from the mountaineers, and we have a class using this area today." Um, hi. I'm not from the mountaineers. I have no class. I am not in a class. I am climbing here. Have a nice day.

hikerwa wrote "I don't think that the all of the mountaineers suck, just the ones that I too have encountered with the "i own this (rock, crevasse, mountain)" attitude." Agree agree agree.

is this similar to the arc'terex packs? This has been out for a while now. Good lightweight summit pack. Roll Top Summit

GregW: One thing to remember: as with most things there is more than one way to skin a cat, there are many views of ice tools and axes. Starting out, there are ice tools and ice axes. Difference is that ice tools are geared toward steeper terrain/ice while ice axes (or mountaineering axes) are geared toward lower angled terrain/ice. I assume from your post that you are looking at ice tools...right? Ice tools come in a dissy array of brands and styles. Every year new models flood the market. Your goals and abilities should dictate your choice...as well as price point. Some will say that they will use an ice axe on very steep ice. Sure certain they will work, but are they the best suited for your purpose? No. Remember, there is more than one ways to skin that god damn cat. Picks: should be drooped or reversed curved as they say, for the steepest ice. these picks grip steep ice quite well. A pick that is not as curved is better on moderate ice (i.e. the BD Alaskan pick rocks on 50 - 60 degree) such as most alpine ice. Leashes: you want something that securely grips your wrist, even more so on the steeper ice. However, you also want to be able to either get out of the leash, diconnect the leash, or manipulte things whith the tool dangleing from you wrist. Style and taste on this. Shaft: Generally most everyone agrees with the se of 50 cm shafts. Most agree that longer is better on alpine ice. On steep water ice a curved or bent shaft of some type is preferred by most. It does save the knuckles. However, a straight shaft is great in the alpine envirment, it lets you plunge the shaft (self-belay) in a smooth manner. Yes, a bent shaft can work (Damn cat) but the straight shaft works better. I have a pair of BD shrikes which I really like. They are reasonably priced and handle anything I am going to climb. I have 50 cm bent shafts. one detachable leash (BD Robo) and one of the BD lockdown leashes. I have really come to like the lockdown and feel for the money and the "low-tech" advantages it offers, it is my favorite. I have one adze and one hammer. The negative is that the adze and hammer are fixed on these tools. Many want to use two hammers on steep ice and one of each in the alpine enviro. Normally in the alpine enviro I carry a standard ice axe and an ice tool. I would love to have a 55 or 60 cm shrike hammer with a straight shaft for alpine. I like the BD because I can put an alskan pick on the tool for alpine then put the curved for water ice. Also all BD picks are interchangable with all BD tools. They are easy to find where ever you climb. Just some input. There are many other here with different experiences and opinions. Try to borrow tools and check them out before you purchase any. Also get tools that fit the use.

Will: I am a choss leader!! But seriously. I am not a tax attorney, but I know there are tax concerns/consequences regarding keeping a product through a tax cycle. So if REI buys 100,000 biners and only sells half by the end of the tax cycle they have to pay tax on the remaining biners. Granted if they later sell the biners they could recoup the tax, but if they sell them at a lower cost they will have to do some accounting gymnastics to recoup. Also, if you shell out the money for tax that gives you less to buy TNF parkas to sell at the higher margin. Thus the old expression, time is money. Anyway, just my .25 cents worth

Anybody have any expereince with these boots? Good water ice and Mixed boot? Scarpa Boots Any onfo appreciated. This is a REALLY good price.

My experience at REI: I worked there part-time for a couple of years. I heard/observed two things regarding the topic of this thread. I cannot say this is fact...but just what I picked up. One was that the "buyers" were rated or graded or compensated on what they sold...so if things sat on the shelve that was not good. Further if they did not sell through an item and it had to be reduced, even worse. (To a certain degree that makes pefect sense). Oddly enough if you sold through an item the buyer MUST have ben able to predict the proper amount of sale. i.e. one hundred biners purchased from BD. One hundred biners sold by end of quarter. However, what this system lacked was the ability to guage in any way manner or form, what the "buyer" could have sold. If the 100 biners sold in a week, certainly they could have sold a shitload more....demand was there but supply was not. But their system simply saw that at the end of the quater, 1000 biners had sold. Good job "buyer" = unhappy climbers. Second thing was that REI views climbing as a loss-leader. Meaning they accept the loss of the department as a lead to other departments. The climbing department has the smallest margin. Margin on a biner is about 25-30% while margin on a TNF coat is 50%. Additionally, the climbing department has the greatest "shrink." Before moving the biners behind the counter, shrink was at 50% on biners. That is a huge loss on a small margin item. REI knows it could sell more climbing hardware, but doesn't want to because it would be too great of a loss. Instead they use their capital to purchase more softgoods and sell them at a greater margin. However, they are in the position that if they abondon climbing hardware, they abandon climbers. Thus thier economic base, or core, disapears. And then they end up like Eddie Bauer. As I stated above, in an academic sense, it is founded in logic. For me and you it sucks. More and more I steer towards the little guys, Second Bounce and Nelson's shop, for my hardware. I'm not saying REI is the big evil giant boogey man of the industry. But as they alienate me more and more, I gravitate towards the shops that welcome me, that have cordage in stock, that don't view me as a loss-leader.

It looks like they are getting close to opening the pass....

Fairweather: To answre your question I think something is wrong with my computer...and i have been very busy. I just posted this info as a way of passing it on...not supporting the program myself, in fact knowing very little about it. Just some "raw" beta for the posters. I propabply should have made that clear in my original post

New Tri Nuts From the company that brought us prison labor biners with high quality at a fair price...it appears that Omega has come out with a new design for nuts. Anyone seen or used these? Any input? Thoughts? [ 04-16-2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]