Alex

The real problem is that climbers cannot, in fact, self-regulate. Its not new, Hardings routes were "erased" by Robbins who argued the same style and ethical issues we argue today. If we cannot self-regulate, we collectively have to adopt or adhere to *some* standard that defines what's "acceptable". (sorry, I mean this loosely: its really applied *to* us and other users by land managers). It seems that the Wilderness Act has become that standard? It does not necessarily prohibit bolting, only the use of motorized equipment to do so.

I might like to join this hit parade, who's the boss?

Its noon Sat, I have the rest of the weekend free cragging, alpine, whaterever, PM me.

Yes. Whats your guess then?

I think Direct East Buttress only has maybe 25 bolts total.

There are actually a few topos online (one's a to-scale PDF) that give precise numbers.

Just averages. On a coulple of the pitches there are none, actually. Def not a sporto clip up like Condorphamine.

There are not 12 bolts per pitch! On the first 5 pitches there are 22 bolts. The next pitches average something like 3 bolts per pitch to pitch 11, which has something like 8. After that, there are maybe less than 2 bolts per pitch not including anchors to the top of 18. The final pitches have more, maybe like 8 bolts per pitch?

Actually, Infinite Bliss is mostly on granite. The first (what?) 7 or so pitches are on really(!) nice rock but low angle, then there are a few pitches of band of ex38 stuff, then alot more granite. The middle mountain (pitch 16,17,18) isnt as clean as the lower polished slabs on the first 8 pitches or so.

no, but if you cant keep your agendas out of "partner wanted" ads, then you shouldnt be posting here. let the dude climb what he wants and make up his own mind. <edit>sorry, Squid, to answer your question, I thought the Adams discussion was already in Access, and the Fee Demo is on the climbing board? I would probably move the Fee Demo thing to Access sometime after its run its course in a few days or weeks or whatever. There are already good threads on Infinite Bliss in Access forum as well.</edit>

Continue beating this horse here in Spray!

I removed this discussion to Spray.

See http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/392992/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

http://www.mountainwerks.org/cma/2001/fortress/fortress.htm

its bad style to grab draws, chains, or haul yourself up with the rope. but its worse style to fall and get hurt! don't sacrifice safety for "style".

I moved this to "Access Issues" as I thought it was a good thread that stayed mostly on track, and gives some good context on the ongoing issues of access, bolting, wilderness, and so on.

There is a good guidebook to Cathedral, Whitehorse, and a few of the routes on Cannon, I can't remember the exact title but IME or EMS in North Conway will sell it. There is a seperate guide on Rumney I think. Cannon and Cathedral are "fairly close" to each other in that they are both around the Mt Washington area; North Conway is the epicenter of that part of the world. Recommended routes: for you and Elena you must do Whitney Gillman on Cannon cliff. Its an East Coast classic, and with the leaves turning and the crisp air now it will be a total adventure. On Cathedral there are a number of 1-2 pitch routes (its not a high cliff by Western standards) that are good: Rose Crack is a classic single pitch .9 jamcrack, Thin Air is the classic multi-pitch moderate (.7?) up Cathedral, and the Standard Route on Whitehorse Ledge is a good longer 5.5 slab route. There's lots of harder stuff, like Liquid Sky, for you to get on.

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access?

People like this who drilled wilderness wouldnt last long in the community, though, they'd get their asses kicked! I don't know if it was ever answered, but is the Garfield route in-fact inside a wilderness boundry? It doesnt seem like it, since there is a road a few hundred feet away...?

It seems like alot of it comes down to how much you really believe in/value the concept of "wilderness". For a local example, I think anyone on this board would have a hard time not getting very angry at a new, rap-bolted line up Dragontail or the N ridge of Stuart, lets say. Imagine a Vantage-style clip-up up Razorback Ridge. I know I got really pissed off when Caveman recently mentioned someone bolting on Prussik (turned out to be hand-drilling). But would I call in Larry the Tool to take care of what I would erase myself in a heartbeat though? Put it in those terms. No, in reality I personally would prob take matters into my own hands and take responsibility for my actions than "tell on" that someone and hope they get a 500$ fine. I think thats the stance of the vast majority of all climbers in North America, sporto or trad or what-have-you.

slothrop, I have "Rock Climbing Arizona" you could borrow. It covers some of the areas.

Lambone, as the person who sent you that original PM, all I can say is that I am really surprised and disappointed.

http://www.safeclimbing.org/

all I have to say is,....wow

classic!