Alex

There is ample beta and topos on the net. Even so, I can say from recent experience that the more beta you have, the better. The first hour approach is very steep up through the trees along a fairly decent trail, very faint at first, to the base of the route. Water at the base of the route. The earlier you get to the base, the better. This route is a very long day, even for extremely fast parties! We got to the base of the route at 6:30am, or thereabouts. The first 10 or so pitches are all low-to-moderate 5th. The first 5 pitches are characterized by very low angle slab. With around 25 draws you can simul the first 4 pitches clipping every bolt and anchor. The next few pitches climb undulating (sometimes steep, sometimes not) terrain to the base of the first crux pitch. When we climbed to this point, we were simulclimbing alot, and linking alot of pitches together with a 70m and simulclimbing. The "ditch" pitch is pretty much a solo. The 10b pitch is steeper, clean granite face climbing. Above that much more terrain leads to the final upper headwall, and several 5.10 pitches. Some notes: * climb as fast as you possibly can. * the confusion around where to go p16 and p17 is not to be underestimated. Study your topo, locate the features, and follow all advice you can find about routefinding on these two pitches. The mandatory downclimbing here would be extremely dangerous when wet. * party inflicted rockfall on the first 11-12 pitches is a real concern. I don't recommend this climb, but I figure everyone should make up their own minds. Alex

Dox, thats a great link-up! I think Fault/Catapult/Bone/SFaceJelloTower/Midway has as much quality climbing as Outer Space.

I have the 60m 7.7 lines, they are nice ropes but you definitely need to have an adequate "thin line" belay and rappel device to avoid loosing control while rappelling

Kearney's guide has a decent pic of the N face, much better than Beckey's. Sounds like a long way in!

I'd second that, not just for 2003 but for any season. Seems like prime early season is anytime from 3rd week of Oct (higher in the alpine, like Shuksan and Eldorado) to whenever the first real snows bury things and rain washes the lowland ice out. In the past few years we've definitely seen several weeks of dry weather in Oct, Nov, and Dec where alpine ice is real good.

Great choice for a lightweight 4 days!

"Did you rappel down Doug's Direct on your way out from J'Berg? I wonder if I should take something to set one up as my wife can cruise up that stuff but is really careful downclimbing such terrain. I recall that the last few hundred ft. up to the ridge was on nice clean rock. " We downclimbed it both directions. On the Formidible side I'd say the climb back up day 2 was scarier somehow than the initial downclimb the first day. On the Cascade Pass side at the very top I was a bit nervous both directions, as there is alot of exposure; but its only the last 100 feet or so, so its pretty fast. I bet you could find a decent block to rap off from the col down the Cascade Pass side, but I dont think you could rap much of the Formidible side.

John, is the SE Route the "scrambly" looking route farthest from JoBurg, starts at the backside of Mixup ridge to the Triplets summit farthest away from Jburg? I guess I only saw what you did so can't offer you more than you know already, but I agree with you it looks very reasonable and like a cool day to the top of a rare summit. ( Cascade SW route looks scary!)

MTNEER, you might also want to post this (or a link to it) in the Authors Requests forum.. just a thought.

joe is a joebot. you will find this identical post in about 50 other fences today.

All natural resource management agencies (I've worked for USFS, USFWS, BLM, and volunteered for NOCA) have crazy thin budgets in the last 20 years in my experience. There is very little revenue in natural resources (for any party), while the yearly management cost (consider fire budgets for Western states alone!) is very high. Its true fire budget comes out of the general fund while typical resource activities are funded differently, but the net result is that as agency budgets get cut, the agencies increasingly rely on 1) volunteer work by volunteer trails crews, prison crews, and so on and 2) other forms of revenue, like the fee demo project. Some solutions that agencies have had to resort to recently is the full on closure of historic monuments and such. Other things is the increase in park entrance fees. The USFS is trying the fee demo (which I would speculate milks alot more money from average 2x-a-year-weekend-hiker than it does from many of the climber types here who are in the mountains 50 days a year). I am not condoning it, but just trying to offer the perspective of someone who tried to make a career in natural resource management and failed for the very reasons that surround the fee demo project.

Level 4 Forest Service rangers (you'll know them because they are the ones that have a right to bear a service revolver) typically have a decent amount of training in law enforcement, have the right to arrest you, and I would fully expect them to interact with you "correctly" in this situation. That includes knowing how to react to an individual who questions authority. This individual you encountered might have had the authority to issue tickets (you dont have to be Level 4 to issue a ticket, but are not permitted to restrain or arrest people who do not accept your ticket) clearly didn't know how to (civilly) work with you on a subject that has alot of backcountry user's ire. While I don't think just driving away is ever the best solution, in this case I would have been very loathe to accept the ticket as well, and might just have done the same thing under the circumstances. Just remember that the rangers, whether backcountry rangers in North Cascades looking for backcountry permits or Forest Service rangers looking for the NW Forest Pass, are people too and trying to do the job that they are tasked with. Oftentimes they dont personally agree with the regulations they enforce, but they still are representatives of the government and agency that they work for. Its not a fun task, so if you can, cut them some slack.

The posts in the Events Forum are pretty much of two varieties: Pub Club-type activities, and other events such as slide shows, open climbing events, Rope Up, and so on. The "Pub Club" threads are open to everyone and open to spray and bullshit, because I regularly and frequently remove them from this forum. I don't moderate these threads typically, unless my attention is specifically drawn to them for some reason. The "Events" threads are open to everyone, however I urge you to use some restraint: this forum is not Spray despite my lax attitude towards the Pub Club threads, so in the interest of useful long-lived threads, please keep the threads on topic. While it is the original poster's responsibility to set the tone of the thread (if you dont want people to puke all over your thread, ask them not to!) I am much more prone to help keep these threads clean, so don't hesitate to send a PM to a forum moderator if you need some help doing so. Thanks, Alex

If this is really going to happen, someone pls just tell me and I'll sticky the thread... I'd also like to second AlpineKs sentiment that index has some hard climbing, but there is plenty for beginners to do, if you have someone who can show you where it all it is (the beginner routes are spread out between Inner Wall, Great Northern Slab, and The Country). That said, the after-climb pub situation that Peter Puget brings up is definitely better in North Bend.

catbirdseat, do the different branches run essentially the same trips (like, go the same places, same basic training for the basic and intermediate classes)? are the instructor to student ratios different depending on branch? just curious.

werd

I think I did it left hand in, feet against the right hand wall. There is a great rest right before the thrutching. I had a pack hanging from my harness, though. Admittedly, I suck at chimneying, so squeeze 5.9 moves always feel hard to me.

What a silly thing to say. If trad climbers of the 60s were willing to accept that they were actually getting better than their "there is no harder thing than 5.9" closed system ratings, I think grading in this range would be alot more fair and standard across the board. I think I've climbed enough and in enough places to be able to legitimately question the ratings, thanks very much! Adjusting ratings both up and down on routes is a time-honored tradition: some routes deserve downgrading, some routes deserve upgrading. Its not a radical departure to grade something 5.10a from 5.9, nor is it a radical thing to downgrade a pitch popularly accepted as 10a as "fealt 5.9 to me". Its all just an opinion, after all. Alex

Some great information in this thread. My own experience is that The Mountaineers, Mazamas, and WAC are all revolve around the same experience level and same type of experience. When you start talking about individuals, however, there are many exceptions. Someone here mentioned that BOEALPS (boealps.org), and I also have some experience with that group notably the teachers and some of the graduates, all whom I hold in very high regard. As a teaching organization, I believe the BoeAlps folks are much more progressive than The Mountaineers or Mazamas. Their experience is marked by smaller numbers in a "class", and much less needless structure because of it.

I climbed the route last summer. I would have to say that the chimney pitch is a thrutch, though really short. However, if Meat Grinder gets 10a, it seems like this chimney pitch should also be 10a? It seemed hard for a 9. The last pitch I found easier physically, and the "crux" top section the easiest part of the pitch, but I think even at Index the whole thing would be rated 9+ or 10a.

yeah the cord needs to be smaller diameter than the std 5 or 6mm perlon to grip the skinny skinny ice floss.

right on! if I had a harness in my car I'd take you up on it.

I wouldnt go that far! I think John's TR captures very much the flavor of the route. Johannesburg IS a motherfucker! I cannot adequately describe the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness when cresting the false summit and still seeing the true summit so far away. Mentally prepare for it, if you go. We almost demotivated and turned around. Its serious business. Three times we dislodged bowlingball+ sized rocks on each other on the descent, one of them core-shot the rope. One of the only reasons we made it up and down this route safely and efficiently is because of the several people who tried/did it before and posted the really valuable information here on what to expect (principally Stefan, catbirdseat, and Juan, and Loren for his trip report that gave us some valuable clues about route finding) - I just wanted to add a TR that will hopefully give others a workable game plan if they want to climb this peak. I am impressed that some people manage to get Cascade or the Triplets or Mixup on the way out, we were wiped out.

What part of This info is all second-hand, from a party camping in the area Sat night that talked to the rescue people is unclear, exactly, Brian?

uh huh. The only thing I am getting from you guys is that next time you want some information on something, I am keeping my mouth shut. I thought I made it abundantly clear that what I was posting was hearsay (the quotes, the question marks, the phrase "second hand information") and not concrete facts. For you to be jumping all over my (unedited) post at this time, a week + after the incident, seems pretty odd, no? The details of the situation were posted by Freeman, what more do you need?