Alex

Matt, I think its just an example. The point is if you make concessions to one user group with its own needs and demands (such as bolted crags), you might open yourself up to making concessions to another user group with its own needs and demands (such as groomed snowmobile trails). Its not an unreasonable supposition, certainly one that land managers grapple with constantly. Ironically, I just stumbled upon this thread in the Access Issues forum, that is discussion just such a topic. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Number=392992

good questions. and These are good questions, i wish you would have just asked them in the beginning. To the first question, yes there are alot of crags in the area. Not that many of them get iced up however, or are high enough (remember to add 10 ft of snow to any summer-time cliff heights) and some are in avalanche areas. Other places where there is sufficient icing, there are no bolts because the ice protects fine with screws. Alpental Falls, for example, but there are many pure ice climbs in that valley. Or the route protects well enough with natural mixed gear. For example, there is currently a stiff multi-pitch mixed route in Alpental that goes at WI5+ X, that is not bolted and protected only by natural gear. The second, for the most part yes, no, and yo-yoing and retrieving gear off a route like this is extremely hard. To be clear, there are several routes: the Rap Wall routes (40ft high) on on compact rock and have no natural pro opportunities. Ghost Dog is on a different crag nearby, on the same type of stone but more overhanging and blocky and might have some limited natural gear, however in my experience its the same stuff as the overhanging stuff at world wall 1, which is to say that some small placements might exist, but the rock is friable and bolts make more sense. As to the question of top-roping. Ghost Dog: not really possible. The Rap Wall: actually, one of the current routes is a pure top-rope route, the other three have lead bolts. Approaching these routes from above in winter is pretty dangerous. I don't know. I dont want to see snowmobilers in Alpental, but i also dont want to see them on the Easton Glacier or in Esmerelda Basin, and they are there. My guess is that its a non-issue, since the snowmobile network is pretty well established in Washington and if machines were ever to be allowed in that particular valley, they would have by now. They sure are just about everywhere else!

since you've seen the route - that it overhangs about 35 feet in 80 feet and that approaching it from above is very difficult, especially in winter, you'll know that top-roping this route would be much more dangerous than leading it.

Seattle Times ran this same article.

I think you can only redpoint a trail if you bleed all over it in organized splatters.

Several things: Dwyaner, I personally am not pro-bolt or anti-bolt. However I take exception when anyone attacks something this sensitive using false statements, especially when it is you, with your past record on this issue. I find you hypocritical when you take your podium about these routes in particular when there is a well-established ski area half a mile away, in this same "beautiful mountain area", and bolted crags exist nearby with longer approaches than this crag. If you want to rant away about bolts, do so, but don't post lies. If you want the trash removed, you are certainly welcome to go remove the draws and return them to the person who is currently attempting to redpoint that route. (If you want to make a career of removing trash, you should go to Smith Rock.) If you just want to chop some bolts or howl about the injustice done to the rock, then there are pleanty others that exist in other beautiful mountain areas of Washington more remote than Alpental, the most heavily used recreation areas within 50 miles of Seattle, that anyone could point you at. Ray, "this place is fucking disgusting sometimes. The moderators are more arrogant than the sprayers. " Its funny you always draw this distinction between moderators and other board members when it suits. I am not a modertor of this forum, I am a climber. Its too bad you don't think that someone who is a moderator could be free-thinking, a climber, and a moderator all at the same time. Greg_W, not to my knowledge. NYC007, yes, Ghost Dog. Last I heard from Roger he was stuck in Alaska, but is one hang away from the <edit>pinkpoint </edit>.

I was reading mattp's list, and agree that many of the other points raised so far are important. I think two of the greatest problems today are "access" (which mattp's list has several variations of this as seperate bullet items) and "training". I think as a sport, climbing has been forever changed by the advent of climbing gyms and sport climbing, which makes the bar very low for newbie climbers outside. More and more often I see people at the crags who clearly have not had sufficient training. In time this will lead to more accidents, regulations, permits, insurance, (bad) media coverage, and ultimately restricted access. Climbers and all such outdoor users have always been self-goverened in that way, but as the numbers of users becomes greater this is going to get alot more difficult. I think both overcrowding and its access issues, and adequate training (whatever that means) are the emerging problems of the next 30 years.

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Seattle/

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Seattle/forecast03.html

I would like to respectfully correct Merv. The Rap Wall is outside the wilderness boundary, as is the Tooth and Bryant Peak. http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.4568&lon=-121.4562&size=s&symshow=n&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 Please take your anti-bolting stance elsewhere. Thanks, Alex

The hike up to 32 is much longer than the hike up to 38. Something that will make a difference when your avg hiking speed is cut in half by small legs trying to keep up!

me, no gear

I think its going to be wet, but in the off chance it isnt I'll bring some stuff along to work

My family will make a donation. condolences and RIP.

good job! dome really is a classic summit!

Lambone, if I could do just one climb, it would be Infinite Bliss

Went to Arch Cape Sat (rain, drizzle) and it was "flat". Indian Beach Sun with large waves outside that completely clobbered me everytime I tried one, so eventually I stayed in and surfed the whitewater. Monday I was too tired to watched surfing on OLN in the morning and went for a nice beach walk.

above psychopath: p1: mellow 9+/10a p2: not sustained but difficult and strenuous in a few spots. I thought it was 5.11. p3: long 10c sustained but not as strenuous as last pitch (its shy of vert) p4: pressure chamber pitch. quite enjoyable until the last 15 ft (for me!) p5: 10a immediately above the pressure chamber, easing to 5.8 with one 5.9 move out over the final roof. http://www.mountainwerks.org/alexk/climb/TRspace.htm

Here is a good post on LTV about this same topic (glacial and ice retreat) http://www.live-the-vision.com/wwwboard/messages/6585.html

Posting replies to yourself is so 90's.

I am heading to cannon beach for the weekend. Yes, have wetsuit. I have surfed a few times before, on both fiberglass and that foamy type, both long and shorty boards, I def like fiberglass boards better, and have a hard time (because I'm a newb!) on the shorty boards. But I'd pretty much take anything if someone is willing to offer. Alex

Its just different. I've done it on primarily snow to travel, and also over labor day weekend last year when it was less snow. The scree can be tedious in a few spots (principally between Spider Formidible col and Yang Yang lakes) but does not detract from where you are. Alex

I'm wondering if anyone would loan be a "beginner"/"beater" board for Labor Day weekend?Trying to not pay for a rental if I can avoid it...

second Eldorado (E Ridge) as a great long day trip this time of year, where you might just use your ice axe.

Try this http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/381273/page/1/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1