Alex

See http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/392992/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

http://www.mountainwerks.org/cma/2001/fortress/fortress.htm

its bad style to grab draws, chains, or haul yourself up with the rope. but its worse style to fall and get hurt! don't sacrifice safety for "style".

I moved this to "Access Issues" as I thought it was a good thread that stayed mostly on track, and gives some good context on the ongoing issues of access, bolting, wilderness, and so on.

There is a good guidebook to Cathedral, Whitehorse, and a few of the routes on Cannon, I can't remember the exact title but IME or EMS in North Conway will sell it. There is a seperate guide on Rumney I think. Cannon and Cathedral are "fairly close" to each other in that they are both around the Mt Washington area; North Conway is the epicenter of that part of the world. Recommended routes: for you and Elena you must do Whitney Gillman on Cannon cliff. Its an East Coast classic, and with the leaves turning and the crisp air now it will be a total adventure. On Cathedral there are a number of 1-2 pitch routes (its not a high cliff by Western standards) that are good: Rose Crack is a classic single pitch .9 jamcrack, Thin Air is the classic multi-pitch moderate (.7?) up Cathedral, and the Standard Route on Whitehorse Ledge is a good longer 5.5 slab route. There's lots of harder stuff, like Liquid Sky, for you to get on.

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access?

People like this who drilled wilderness wouldnt last long in the community, though, they'd get their asses kicked! I don't know if it was ever answered, but is the Garfield route in-fact inside a wilderness boundry? It doesnt seem like it, since there is a road a few hundred feet away...?

It seems like alot of it comes down to how much you really believe in/value the concept of "wilderness". For a local example, I think anyone on this board would have a hard time not getting very angry at a new, rap-bolted line up Dragontail or the N ridge of Stuart, lets say. Imagine a Vantage-style clip-up up Razorback Ridge. I know I got really pissed off when Caveman recently mentioned someone bolting on Prussik (turned out to be hand-drilling). But would I call in Larry the Tool to take care of what I would erase myself in a heartbeat though? Put it in those terms. No, in reality I personally would prob take matters into my own hands and take responsibility for my actions than "tell on" that someone and hope they get a 500$ fine. I think thats the stance of the vast majority of all climbers in North America, sporto or trad or what-have-you.

slothrop, I have "Rock Climbing Arizona" you could borrow. It covers some of the areas.

Lambone, as the person who sent you that original PM, all I can say is that I am really surprised and disappointed.

http://www.safeclimbing.org/

all I have to say is,....wow

classic!

Matt, I think its just an example. The point is if you make concessions to one user group with its own needs and demands (such as bolted crags), you might open yourself up to making concessions to another user group with its own needs and demands (such as groomed snowmobile trails). Its not an unreasonable supposition, certainly one that land managers grapple with constantly. Ironically, I just stumbled upon this thread in the Access Issues forum, that is discussion just such a topic. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Number=392992

good questions. and These are good questions, i wish you would have just asked them in the beginning. To the first question, yes there are alot of crags in the area. Not that many of them get iced up however, or are high enough (remember to add 10 ft of snow to any summer-time cliff heights) and some are in avalanche areas. Other places where there is sufficient icing, there are no bolts because the ice protects fine with screws. Alpental Falls, for example, but there are many pure ice climbs in that valley. Or the route protects well enough with natural mixed gear. For example, there is currently a stiff multi-pitch mixed route in Alpental that goes at WI5+ X, that is not bolted and protected only by natural gear. The second, for the most part yes, no, and yo-yoing and retrieving gear off a route like this is extremely hard. To be clear, there are several routes: the Rap Wall routes (40ft high) on on compact rock and have no natural pro opportunities. Ghost Dog is on a different crag nearby, on the same type of stone but more overhanging and blocky and might have some limited natural gear, however in my experience its the same stuff as the overhanging stuff at world wall 1, which is to say that some small placements might exist, but the rock is friable and bolts make more sense. As to the question of top-roping. Ghost Dog: not really possible. The Rap Wall: actually, one of the current routes is a pure top-rope route, the other three have lead bolts. Approaching these routes from above in winter is pretty dangerous. I don't know. I dont want to see snowmobilers in Alpental, but i also dont want to see them on the Easton Glacier or in Esmerelda Basin, and they are there. My guess is that its a non-issue, since the snowmobile network is pretty well established in Washington and if machines were ever to be allowed in that particular valley, they would have by now. They sure are just about everywhere else!

since you've seen the route - that it overhangs about 35 feet in 80 feet and that approaching it from above is very difficult, especially in winter, you'll know that top-roping this route would be much more dangerous than leading it.

Seattle Times ran this same article.

I think you can only redpoint a trail if you bleed all over it in organized splatters.

Several things: Dwyaner, I personally am not pro-bolt or anti-bolt. However I take exception when anyone attacks something this sensitive using false statements, especially when it is you, with your past record on this issue. I find you hypocritical when you take your podium about these routes in particular when there is a well-established ski area half a mile away, in this same "beautiful mountain area", and bolted crags exist nearby with longer approaches than this crag. If you want to rant away about bolts, do so, but don't post lies. If you want the trash removed, you are certainly welcome to go remove the draws and return them to the person who is currently attempting to redpoint that route. (If you want to make a career of removing trash, you should go to Smith Rock.) If you just want to chop some bolts or howl about the injustice done to the rock, then there are pleanty others that exist in other beautiful mountain areas of Washington more remote than Alpental, the most heavily used recreation areas within 50 miles of Seattle, that anyone could point you at. Ray, "this place is fucking disgusting sometimes. The moderators are more arrogant than the sprayers. " Its funny you always draw this distinction between moderators and other board members when it suits. I am not a modertor of this forum, I am a climber. Its too bad you don't think that someone who is a moderator could be free-thinking, a climber, and a moderator all at the same time. Greg_W, not to my knowledge. NYC007, yes, Ghost Dog. Last I heard from Roger he was stuck in Alaska, but is one hang away from the <edit>pinkpoint </edit>.

I was reading mattp's list, and agree that many of the other points raised so far are important. I think two of the greatest problems today are "access" (which mattp's list has several variations of this as seperate bullet items) and "training". I think as a sport, climbing has been forever changed by the advent of climbing gyms and sport climbing, which makes the bar very low for newbie climbers outside. More and more often I see people at the crags who clearly have not had sufficient training. In time this will lead to more accidents, regulations, permits, insurance, (bad) media coverage, and ultimately restricted access. Climbers and all such outdoor users have always been self-goverened in that way, but as the numbers of users becomes greater this is going to get alot more difficult. I think both overcrowding and its access issues, and adequate training (whatever that means) are the emerging problems of the next 30 years.

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Seattle/

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Seattle/forecast03.html

I would like to respectfully correct Merv. The Rap Wall is outside the wilderness boundary, as is the Tooth and Bryant Peak. http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.4568&lon=-121.4562&size=s&symshow=n&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 Please take your anti-bolting stance elsewhere. Thanks, Alex

The hike up to 32 is much longer than the hike up to 38. Something that will make a difference when your avg hiking speed is cut in half by small legs trying to keep up!

me, no gear