billcoe

At least they'd finally be in the "green jobs" business. The environment would do better with less consumers. Perhaps they can accept volunteers.

@ 15 of us tried that 3 years ago Nate, didn't work. But you have a good point. I think that the CC.com brain trust gave us our own forum, hoping they'd keep us in our own little nut house, but the patients get out of the cuckoos nest and wander the halls periodically....

Yeah? I don't think it was you. This guy was wild eyed looking. Naked except for heavy boots and this sandwich board which said: "MY WIFE EX-WIFE IS A LYING BITCH". and some other things about the government and such. Your wife is a lovely person that's why he might have been the weekend shift.....If they are hiring, I can make up a sandwich board in no time. I'd be interested in the second shift. I'd probably go with the Government rant and the Peregrine rant I suppose. No, belay that Peregrine thing: "Obama is a Muslim": that one! YESSSSS! I'd leave the Peregrine rant for the bone. Oh here's the money! "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim" I'm off to buy some boots.

Absolfreakingloutly Teh Phuzzy, I need the workout. I was going to meet Chad (Lodestone) and his buddy out there after work, but my day is about to take a turn for the busy. I'll be leaving the office soon, and I can't actually tell when I can actually hit it. Chad had wanted to do Toothpick/Blueberry, but I suggested Silver Bullet instead so Bryan (and Skander) can easily wander over when they're tired of picking at rock. Chad has a toyota truck, I have a CR-V. Look for us. Chads 30's good looking and thin, I'm 56, short and balding....old...disgusting looking, hair going grey from diswater blond, double chin...train wreck lookin....I'll be wearing a dark blue shirt and tan slacks....you can click my avatar and look through the pics. Not all the old guy pics are me though, I climb with Jeff and Jim and they're even older. Here, this w/no dog:

LOL! Fixed that for you. I think I use to see that guy up at the VA hospital, naked but for wearing a sandwich board with handwritten felt tip exclamations on it.

...and yet some, like yourself, do have homes. This shooting is very sad no matter how you look at it.

No answer jayb, apparently if you're a "progressive", *cough* tax and spend libtard * cough *, then sure, hey, it's only money. To them the taxpayers have unlimited scratch: they can and should pay for everything under the sun which the government wants: "let the taxpayer pick up the tab it's only money they have lots of it".

Holy crap. Cat's out of the bag. Except it's a press release, why isn't the mainstream media jumping all over this? "WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention by unidentified aerial objects at nuclear weapons sites, as recently as 2003. In some cases, several nuclear missiles simultaneously and inexplicably malfunctioned while a disc-shaped object silently hovered nearby. Six former U.S. Air Force officers and one former enlisted man will break their silence about these events at the National Press Club and urge the government to publicly confirm their reality."

Geoff, who's got the red taped biners? I have one. I've had it in front of the passenger seat for some time (A BD) hoping the owner will see it. Is that your's?

Well...sure there is "law and policy" facts to learn for many, and I agree that not talking to the agency at all: but simply bitching online exclusively is way off kilter and unproductive: but as far as facts go, you don't have a lot of "facts" in your post by way of a response to me. As I understand it, the pair I posted about, the ones on the Fremont bridge, just showed up. They were not hacked (planted) there as you seem to believe. We're not talking about a building in Pittsburgh or Frisco, I brought up the Fremont bridge specifically. You are saying this pair was hacked and even hacked knowing that they would be in a higher risk environment with the understanding that they would not have the protection which Fish and Wildlife was offering to other nesting pairs? I think that this is make believe on your part. They just showed up one day with no human intervention of any sort. That's how I remember it and the story still goes. http://audubonportland.org/issues/endangered-species/peregrine-falcon/portland-peregrines/fremont and http://www.peregrineaa.com/peregrine_falcons.asp Back then they were much much rarer. So precious that they showed up in the city. So you're saying what there? That I'm wrong? Furthermore, do you think climbers, some of whom were responsible for fetching eggs and being directly responsible for the regeneration of this species when big industry trashed it, would have agreed to hack boxes and closures forever on their very climbing routes had they known that those spots would be later closed during the prime climbing season forever due to their actions? I've talked directly to some of these very guys who rapped down and recovered those oh so rare, valuable and precious eggs and I can answer that for you. Or that they'd have agreed to a closure in violation and in opposition to what they had actually saw with their own eyes and believed about climber/Peregrine interactions capability? Their routes closed even after the birds had well recovered to the point of being taken off the Endangered species list and appeared to be more common than Red Tail Hawks in those areas? You think they would have believed they would have done this had they known they would have been exclusively shit on for eternity for doing this kind deed? OK, they would have done it anyway because it was the right thing to do then when the species was an eyeblink of disappearing off the face of the earth, but the government isn't doing the right thing now for them or the birds by shitting exclusively on climbers and allowing the bridge to stay open all those many many years when the bird were oh so rare and precious. Long term there will be resentment and anger that will pressure change not in the way these agency folks would want. That the numbers in opposition to them are not huge makes it seem more manageable for now. Yet build against them and change it will. You should reevaluate what you "think" the facts are JH. They didn't close the Fremont bridge in violation of their own policy's and laws because of political pressure. Furthermore, the belief that fish and wildlife has about space Peregrines need is continually not agreed to by those who are actually having the interactions, that F&W doesn't study it further is certainly on more reason for the angst you mention that you dislike so much. Political pressure. Period. That's why. By no ones account were Climbers responsible in any way for the near extinction of that species. The reverse is true. It was climbers who rapped in and brought back those so very rare and precious eggs. And the bottom line is that many climbers to this day, who are still getting shit on, needlessly according to most except for yourself perhaps, carry anger and resentment over it. THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T APPEAR TO UNDERSTAND. Kevin happens to be one of the rare ones haranguing online on a single note. What I say goes for many many more. For myself, I'm happy for the birds recovery. I strongly dislike the blatant agency hypocrisy I pointed out up there, but I can understand it. This kind of a compromise which the agency makes, or the trail example which Kevin brings up, is very smart to achieve what is really important in the long term. Still, being singled out and shit on is still the reality and much harder for some. I do have the joy of having the birds being recovered. That is the bottom line of importance. Yet we are left with this: Climbers think the closure is unfair BECAUSE IT IS. This is a bigger issue for some climbers and less for others....to non-existent even for some, yet like a rat turd in the sugar bowl, it remains. For climbing, I can go elsewhere. But then, so could the cars on the Fremont bridge. Cheers!

Dumb as bricks these guys. 3 things; 1st) Have a nice night. 2nd) You might need to spend a lot more time explaining what the difference is between an essential service and a non-essential service to have a cogent debate and informed conversation here. Try talking slower. M...U...C...H... M...U...C...H S...L...O...W...E...R. 3rd) Remember that these guys only typically read the first 3 words of any of your posts. So if you need to include an insult in your post, LIKE THEY ALMOST ALWAYS DO, start your post out with a the insult so they catch it. I think challenging debate must mentally disturb them. They continually resort to the idiotic tactic of attacking any opposition in the mistaken belief that if they can yell loud enough and spew enough invective so that you walk away: then they think that they must have been correct all along and you were misguided. Do this and you'll have it covered. Like talking to a wall covered. Good luck!

Another incomplete post Prole: you're welcome.

Looks like someone went to a trundling convention and overlooked seeing the "no parking" sign.

Amen to the 2nd part, but if the policeman wanna be is interested in joining the force to be helping folks:

Looks like the tuition is due! Good luck buddy. Anyone wants to buy anything: I'm here to say buy with confidence, Troy's a good guy. :tup:

This is certainly the case with the interstate bridge (i-405, the Fremont Bridge) . There have been a nesting pair there for a long time. Often they have been unsuccessful in breeding. Certainly a car accident at the wrong time would be devastatingly disruptive....and you've got massive diesel spewing trucks, noise, abrupt honking and huge car traffic on it daily, yet they never once closed it to the thousands of commuters....why? Easy to see why. Because it would be a bad move politically. Once you piss off that many people, the endangered species act would have been overturned by a march of half crazed Suburban and Expedition yuppie drivers the likes of which this country had never seen. LOL! Climbers are comparatively easy pickens:-)

I'll be there if it's dry ...but with rock shoes. Like for you to meet Chad (Lodestone) at some time if he's going to be there. He needs someone to grind him in the dirt, and it ain't me. 40 lbs and 30 years ago perhaps. :-) ...anyone else feel like a lap if it's dry?

Yes, certainly at first. Anderson went and looked before he announced the 1st closure at Cape Horn. The hikers have maintained that the birds have been there co-existing just fine with the hikers for years. That might be true, but I suspect that they do not have very good data on if the chicks were disturbed or not, as you cannot easily see them. Furthermore, in this circumstance, the trail is getting more and more people each year. I know that increased useage can be the case in Yos closures: for instance where they didn't close Superslide (Superslab it's called in reid I think) for many years until it got pretty popular. The birds had nested in the same place all along. You could see the birds gliding overhead dropping into a scrape not to very far away ...@ a city block up and left, appearing totally undisturbed and unconcerned. When they finally did close it, I talked the closure over with Link, the ranger at the time. He indicated that closure was finally put in place strictly due to increasing popularity. Nothing else had changed. Yet then last time I was there it was not closed, and you could see the birds, still apparently fine. I'm unsure why they flipped on it. Because of it's accessibility and visibility of the scrape, it would be nice if Beacon was more open and studied as a demo to see if climber/bird interaction could be closer. Most climbers who have spent a lot of time on rock near birds, and Bachers post on JH's Supertopo link is just one more nail there, believe there is no problem with it.

That thread was turning so far south I was hoping it would die:-) This is starting out much better, hope it contributes. ps, on the rope around the trees thing. I only heard it 2nd hand, I'm not sure if that was Wes's new leaver rope (hope not) but I will volunteer my time to show anyone who doesn't know how to do this: how to tie their own climbing rope around a tree in 5 seconds or less. So lets say between 2 trees would be 10 seconds plus the time it would take to walk the distance. I'm all about caring for you guys.

Is it too much to ask from hikers as well? You got your wish. The Cape Horn trail near The Far Side (you know the Far Side don't ya:-) was closed this year (by Dave Anderson, Washington Fish and Wildlife). Congrats! You got your request fulfilled. BTW -the locals who put in that "unauthorized" trail when they just showed up and stuck in it without permission or asking anyone as I understand it, have recently done some Forest service co-operate trail maintenance work on it. Interesting to see it evolve. It's a great spot for a trail and it's nice to see the FS get on board and helping everyone instead of closing it and arresting trespassers or whatever the alternative would be. Especially when that woman or couple fell off the cliffs @2-3 years ago and got SAR'ed out in a bag. BTW, if you want to check out 2 pretty nice (I believe) unclimbed pinnacles, let me know. Trail info and story here and here: http://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/cape-horn Be careful if you take your little kids there as there is a huge assed drop right next to the cliff at one point.

When those routes were done out there, there was a lot of huge blocks overlaying good rock. When that was looked at, it was suspected that the entire rock you climb on, where the bolt should logically be -ie, where you and everyone is thinking is a better spot now, might have been unattached. Putting a bolt into something like that can be a disaster when you fall onto it and it turns into a pants pissing exercise much like Mr Toads Wild ride with the extreme un-happy 1000 lb block Hammer-Time finish. The left side had clearly already had the chunk fall off of it, thus, that was the place to put a bolt if a bolt was to be put. Years later, once some of the moss and choss is gone, the lines (cracks) - or lack up lines around a potential placement are much easier to determine. I haven't clipped that bolt the last many times I've done it. The route flows better, and the 2nd has less of a swing if they should boff it. As far as Jim moving the bolt, you can pitch it to him. Probably be a good idea AS LONG AS YOU ARE 100% CERTAIN THAT WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO PUT IT WILL NOT PULL OFF IN A VOLKSWAGEN SIZED BLOCK WITH A CLIMBER ATTACHED TO THE BOLT ATTACHED TO THE VOLKSWAGEN IF SOMEONE WAS TO LEADER FALL THERE. 100%. Have you examined it minutely and closely enough to determine if that is the case Steve? PS, haha! got to say Volkswagen twice! Woot!

Come on, we're not that stupid. They can leave them be, OR take them and call the number. They're climbing shoes and have the name on the side. People should just leave others stuff alone unless they are helping out. If they were helping, they would have called, thus, ergo no call: they must be stealing them. BTW, Lucky, check Craigslist for found shoes or found climbing shoes. You just never know.

From the Western Slope No Fee Coalition From WWW.westernslopenofee.org "NEWS BULLETIN! An important decision has been handed down by Federal Magistrate Judge Mark Aspey in Flagstaff, Arizona. He granted a motion by Sedona resident Jim Smith to have his ticket for failure to pay a Forest Service recreation fee (i.e. have a Red Rock Pass) dismissed. Jim parked overnight at the Vultee Arch Trailhead, a dirt parking lot with no amenities accessed by a rough dirt road. He backpacked into the Coconino National Forest, camped in an area with no amenities, and returned to find a ticket on his car because it did not display a Red Rock Pass. The Red Rock Pass fee program is one of the most notorious in the nation, requiring an access fee for 160,000 acres of federal public land, much of it dispersed undeveloped backcountry. Jim challenged the Forest Service's authority to levy a fee at Vultee Arch Trailhead because the law governing recreation fees specifically prohibits fees for parking, general access, walking through federal land without using facilities and services, camping in dispersed undeveloped areas, or in any location that does not offer reasonable access to six specific amenities: permanent toilet, permanent trash container, picnic table, developed parking, interpretive signage, and security services. The Vultee Arch Trailhead offers none of these amenities - it only serves as a place to park and enter undeveloped backcountry, both of which are activities the law says must be free of charge. The nearest toilet is 7 miles away and the nearest trash can is 10 miles away. Jim represented himself, and he was up against the full might of the federal government, but he won because he proved to the judge that the way the Forest Service is implementing fees in the Red Rock Pass area is not a reasonable interpretation of the law. In fact the decision describes the Forest Service's interpretation as "absurd": "In addition to the plain language of the statute prohibiting the Forest Service from charging for parking or access or undeveloped camping, and the plain language of the statute prohibiting the Forest Service from charging an amenity fee at a site where specific amenities were not provided, Congressional intent and legislative history indicate that the Forest Service's construction of the relevant statutory section would thwart Congressional intent and result in an absurd construction of the relevant statutory scheme." [decision p. 29] This is a very important decision, with national implications. There are almost 100 places around the country where the Forest Service has created "High Impact Recreation Areas" or HIRAs. Within a HIRA they have been claiming the authority to charge a fee for any activity at all as long as the six amenities exist somewhere in the HIRA, no matter how scattered or how far away. This interpretation has resulted in visitors being charged fees to access millions of acres of dispersed undeveloped backcountry. Judge Aspey says nix to all that. Among other things, this decision renders moot the signs in the Red Rock Pass area that say you have to buy a pass to park anywhere on the National Forest, and makes it unlikely that the Coconino - or any other National Forest - can ever again successfully prosecute someone for not having a pass at trailheads or dispersed camping areas. You can read more about the case, including all the legal briefs and the judge's decision, at our website. For a direct link to the decision

Sweet, but you're the only one to recognize it Dave, even though that's what this thread is pretty much evolved into. Woot! Regards to all: Bill

Normally I don't respond to you posts as you hide behind your anonymity, (and I'm at work waiting for a report to run) which seems pretty cowardly to me. I've seen what you are describing, but it seems to me that normal people see that hyperbole and not just disregard it as stupid over the line unreasonable unsubstantiated rantings and trash talk, but then they (the normal people) start discounting everything else the wing nut who is pitching way out to right field says. Those who talk and lie that way do themselves a disservice imo.