billcoe

As far as empty old stale industries in old New York, I'll see Hugh Jardons New York Kodak,and I'll raise you a NON-unionized . Never were unionized....samesame market forces at work, nothing to do with Unions. They gave up reporting the employment figures, which for so many years they were so proud off. http://www.thestreet.com/story/10706503/ibm-stops-reporting-us-employment-numbers.html Interesting that they all thought that at the time significant number of workers assumed that they AND their bosses had made "flexibility and efficiency part of the playbook." Perhaps it's hard to compete with a $3.00 a day Chinese worker though, staying as you say: flexible and efficient. Maybe if they were working for $3.00 a day. BTW, I basically agree with your earlier response to me, however, I'm checking out of this conversation as due to the complexity and many fine nuances: this kind of discourse, by necessity, means that we skip much of what is true, interesting and meaningful: and argue points which the others have already taken for granted but chosen not to type out in full. That and I have a glass of wine and a good book:-) Hasta bros! BTW, I value your opinion more than Moores, but you both have some holes in your thinking.... perhaps due to background. ie http://mathworld.wolfram.com/YoungGirl-OldWomanIllusion.html blah blah blah I'm not going for disertation that's all I got, figure it out. Take care!

Love Rick but I'll go $20 on the hound. Assuming Marcus and John are officiating this year of course and Layton stays with the Harem in SLC.

I think through some sophistry you introduced some things to the discussion which were not there Jay. Who said Unions increase efficiency? We can spread out the credit to lots of places, and although a case might be made that the Unions helped in a minor way to achieve increased production, they are small in comparison to increased mechanization, industrialization, and capitol/resource exploitation and investment. What the unions did was spread the wealth, like Moore says here: "Working people didn't get to send their kids to college, few were able to own their own fucking home, nobody could take a fucking day off for a funeral or a sick day or they might lose their fucking job." Furthermore, they, the unionized workers, more than any other entity, brought safety to many very harsh working environments where before there was unregulated greed and injured, maimed or killed workers tossed aside like a used Kleenex. One side of my family comes from coal miners. I could go on this subject for quite sometime. No, that was introduced by you, we are on another subject altogether. Warm regards sir!

Aren't there independent testing labs that check out these various claims and specs?

I often don't give a whit for Michael Moore as he spends a lot of time being a blowhard reaching way out just to sell a marginal idea with some F*ed up premises. Truth be told, in this example Michael Moore dredges up, Rahm was summarizing: probably just like Glen Beck when he tripped on his dick and called Obama a racist. Beck later recanted that short version statement, and his entire layout was much more accurate and interested, saying that Obama “...is a guy who understands the world through liberation theology” and discussed in detail all that entails. Samesame here with Moore. I'm sure that it's the "F*ing" short version that Rahm pitched:-) LOL Yet in Moores rant against Rahm Emmanuel, he speaks from the heart and hits it well. I think it's pretty good overall even if it has some deep logic holes, missing info and is but a single viewpoint. He doesn't go into many union things: John Lewis and the heroic coal miners who predated the 1937 strike he mentions and the health benefits that later came to that deadly industry as a starter, 20 pages more of the same. You can argue some specifics, to me he's off on a tangent in space on the "arrest the wall street guys" thing, but IMO the tone is pretty "F*ing" good. Bon Appetit http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-09-07/michael-moore-to-rahm-emanuel-happy-fuckin-labor-day/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsC4 "When Michael Moore heard that White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel had some choice words for the auto workers' union during Detroit's bailout crisis, he penned a scathing response." Happy Fuckin' Labor Day! I read this week that—according to a new book by Steven Rattner, your administration's former "Car Czar"—during White House meetings about how to save the tens of thousands of jobs that would be lost if GM and Chrysler collapsed, your response was, "Fuck the UAW!" Now, I can't believe you actually said that. Maybe Rattner got confused because you drop a lot of F-bombs, or maybe your assistant was trying to order lunch and you said (to Rattner) Or maybe you did mean, "Fuck the UAW." If so, let me give you a little fucking lesson (a lesson I happen to know because my fucking uncle was in the sit-down strike that founded the fucking UAW.) Before there were unions, there was no middle class. Working people didn't get to send their kids to college, few were able to own their own fucking home, nobody could take a fucking day off for a funeral or a sick day or they might lose their fucking job. Then working people organized themselves into unions. The bosses and the companies fucking hated that. In fact, they were often overheard to say, "Fuck the UAW!!!" That's because the UAW had beaten one of the world's biggest industrial corporations when they won their battle on February 11, 1937, 44 days after they'd taken over the GM factories in Flint. Inspired by their victory, workers struck almost every other fucking industry, and union after union was born. Had World War II not begun and had FDR not died, there would have been an economic revolution that would have given everyone—everyone—a fucking decent life. Nonetheless, labor unions did create a middle class for the majority (even companies that didn't have unions were forced to pay at or near union wages in order to attract a workforce), and that middle class built a great country and a good life. You see, Rahm, when people earn a fucking good wage, they spend it on stuff, which then creates more good-paying jobs, and then the middle class grows fucking big. Did you know that back when I was a kid if you had a parent making a union wage, only one parent had to work?! And they were home by 3 or 4 p.m., 5:30 at the latest! We had dinner together! Dad had four weeks paid vacation. We all had free health and dental care. And anyone with decent grades went to college and it didn't fucking bankrupt them. (And if you ever used the F-word, the nuns would straighten you out in ways that even you couldn't bear to hear about.) Then a Republican fired all the air-traffic controllers, a Democrat gave us NAFTA, and millions of jobs were moved overseas. (Hey, didn't you work in that White House, too? "Fuck the UAW, baby!") Unions got scared and beaten down, a frat boy became president and, like a drunk out of control, spent all our fucking money and our children's money, too. Fuck. You see, Rahm, when people earn a good wage, they spend it on stuff, which then creates more good-paying jobs. And now your assistant's grandma has to work at fucking McDonald's. Ask her for pictures of what the middle-class life used to look like. It was effing cool! I'll bet grandma doesn't say "Fuck the UAW!" Hey, don't get me wrong, Rahm. I fucking like you. You single-handedly got the House returned to the Dems in 2006. But you and your boss better do something fucking quick to put people back to work. How 'bout making it a crime to take an American job and move it out of the country? In other words, treat it as if it were a fucking national treasure like you would if someone stole the Declaration of Independence out of the National Archives or some poacher stole eggs out of the nest of an American bald eagle. Or how about arresting some of those Wall Street guys who fucking stole our money, the money that ran the American economy. Now that would take some fucking guts. And maybe, just maybe, that one act of real guts might save your ass come November 2nd. Oh, I can just hear you now: "Fuck Michael Moore!" No problem. But fuck the UAW? How 'bout if I just leave off the 'A' and the 'W'? Yours, Michael Moore P.S. Here is what Robert Kennedy had to say on Labor Day, 42 years ago, via today's op-ed from Rep. Alan Grayson: "Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that—counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. "It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children. "Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans." When Robert Kennedy said these words, the unemployment rate in America was 3.7 percent. Today, it is almost three times as high. Too many of our working brothers and sisters are out of work, thanks to more than a decade of economic mismanagement. Ten percent of us are unemployed, and the other 90 percent work like dogs to try to avoid joining them. Which is just what the bosses want. But it doesn't have to be that way. I look forward to a Labor Day where every worker has a job, every worker has a pension, every worker has paid vacations, and every worker has the health care to enjoy life. Our Republican opponents call that France. I call it America, an America that is No. 1. Not No. 1 in wasted military expenditures. Not No. 1 in number of foreign countries occupied. No. 1 in jobs. No. 1 in health. No. 1 in education. No. 1 in happiness. As Robert Kennedy famously said, "I dream of things that never were, and ask, 'Why not?'" Why not? Let's make it happen. And then all of us who are Americans, including the ones today who are jobless, homeless, sick and suffering, we all can then say, "I am proud to be an American." Michael Moore is an Academy Award-winning filmmaker and author. He directed and produced Roger & Me, Bowling for Columbine, Fahrenheit 9/11, and Sicko. He has also written seven books, most recently, Mike's Election Guide 2008.

Nothing wrong with gay...I actually don't think this vid will contribute anything to this thread but here it is anyway. Normally I'd be all over a vid with 2 scantilly clad hotties singing on key.....but....well........ sorry. Don't hate me. [video:youtube] PS, it gets even worse with the F* you song....crazy worse.

This! That's real close to an artery. You pull it out and the faucet opens, you die real soon from blood loss. Wrap it up with as sterile as you can get so that the object is immobile and the bleeding stops/slows and rush to the hospital taking care to not budge the object. If that had punctured the vein or artery, and the pressure from the nose was right on a hole in an artery and the only thing keeping it from uncorking, you want to be sitting right next to a surgeon in a full on trauma center when it gets yoinked out. Furthermore, they can xray it and see what the best way to reverse it is, you'd have no idea exactly what's inside of your arm - and pulling it out would be a matter of luck and pluck. Policemen see this with impaled objects like glass from car accidents all too frequently.

From Mountain Project. Fella tried to grab his draw as he fell some where in the Eldo area. The tape came later. Bleck ...

I'm with what Bryan says. Except, for myself, if some new bolts wind up here or there on unbolted climbs, it's not only not the end of the world, it would most likely be a good thing in many locations. That's my opinion only of course. I've said this exact thing to Jim and he stares at me like he doesn't know who I am and proceeds to explain why that shouldn't occur and how having a place where one needs to confront total gear routes near PDX as a training ground for young climbers who don't know that it's good to challenge oneself without chickening out with bolts etc etc on and on. LOL! Seriously:-) I understand his point perfectly too, and have been supportive of it as much as possible. As far as the name.... it's just a name. Jim would like to keep it The Far Side, so I'm sticking with that as he found the place and also, one way or another, was responsible for the turn of events that led us all individually to it. I will add that it seemed to have taken me @30 years to start calling the route called "Cruisemaster", which I named when we did it, to Jims revised name for it "Crusin'" (Beacon Rock). He had asked me my opinion about the change way back then - explaining that there were too many "*-masters" already) Rockmaster, Couchmaster, etc,etc) and I'd said "sure, hey whatever", I was fine with it but changing inside my own mind, it turned out, was not that easy. ...so ...whatever! It's all good. Also - Tim's saying that he still has copies of the PRC 3rd edition, but that retailers just need to be ordering it. He also says that the next rev is coming later, and not in October. So if you want the 3rd edition, and it's not a bad idea as I've seen entire cliffs dropped out of newer editions, I'd go get it now, and if they are out, ask the retailer to order it for you. The next ed. will have some new places, but that doesn't mean that all of the old ones in 3rd edition will still be there. ..if that makes sense....

Good looking kids multiple K's. Early climber training I suppose:-0

Ditto!!!

Change out those glasses and helmet on your avatar pic and I expect that wonderful things will happen. LOL! Kidding, didn't you have a medical thing happening? How old are you anyway, cause I've been feeling particularly old this summer after ripping the tendons in my shoulder and the arthritis in my fingers is so bad I can't knock on a f*ing door...but I'm only 55....or so.

My son recently let me know that he got a job for the weekend and is bailing on me. I have till @ 4 sat and all day Sunday and Monday. Beacon. beacon beacon? Maybe an easy lap. I'm old and hurt. Beacon is the only place I want to climb unless you want to head for the hinterlands to go look at something unclimbed.

OK, sorry - ..well, I don't know Josh, it's nice to know that he probably doesn't look like this. or Hard to see a yamaka in the words.

What's this stunning bit of info? You have a job? Shit, who knew?

The cheap bastards never pay for gas either. Thank Allah the Jews have such a stand up guy like fairweather to defend them from the attacks of you leftist jew loathing freedom haters! P.S. Rumor has it a Jew was climbing "heart of gold" in Leavenworth today, likely looking for spare change. If either of you think think any of this bullshit if funny I got newz for you. It's not. It's whatever the opposite of funny is.

Off hand, I would suggest this is the legal equivalent of Larry, Curly and Moe! If I'm wrong, and you go to jail for my advice, please let me know and I'll bring you cookies.

Think of it as Obama just doubling down. Who hasn't ever gotten drunk at a casino and done this very thing?...... Come on....show of hands.......see! Everyone! Not to worry FW, tomorrow, dude wakes up hungover, maybe a little vomit on his chin, headache, feeling like a herd of Buff has run through his mouth and shit on his tongue....but then he puts on a new leaf on life and realizes that all that spending is tossing the country down a hell hole we won't be able to claw our way back out of in his kids life time. He turns fiscally conservative, trims the federal expenditure by firing JB and his tax and spend ilk, we get a slight tax increase but folks who really are in deep need still have it coming to them, but he tells the Chinese to piss off we won't keep borrowing. See, there's' still hope! Certainly the President is sharp enough to figure this out! That's why we wanted the smart one in there. (no sarcasm here, really) Relax. Here: [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9K4BKkLaCI

I suspect that once they sit down after the fact - do the math and divide what we spent into what we got, they'll realize that we f*ing overpaid X3 the going rate. In the end, we got off lucky in terms of American lives, not so much Iraqi life's. If one thinks regime change was a goal, a single Tomahawk missile to a Hussein family reunion would have been significantly more cost effective and the end game would have been very similar with much less innocent life and American treasure and world goodwill wasted. We could have sat back, let the international community work on them, and had the manpower, money and hardware to deal with the real threat just next door, a nuclear armed Iran. What was our opportunity cost? Hard to calculate. Fortunately, jb has his oil to refuel his SUV now. Little pricey though.

I still want my camel ride. I'm entitled:-) It's in the constitution.

I see 2006, we funded Egypt $1,795,000,000 while Israel got slightly more at $2,520,000,000. Jordon less. Egypt gets less due to military funding being less than Israel. Strange as they have so little oil? For all that I know of no one who even got so much as a Camel ride or a thank you note. Worth a look, it's your money. http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

Palestinians vs Israelis are not the main event for US policy makers IMO. The main event is that according to some in the US - Muslims are living over there right on top of our oil wells and crimping our unquenchable thirst for same. When a billion car-driving Chinese with near empty gas tanks come winging down the road head on towards our 300 million large SUV drivers (numbers approximated) - it's going to be quite the spectacle when they crash.....probably appropo that it would be in the middle east I suppose. Certainly getting a few straws in the ground, even if you are selling some of it to the Chinese as it is a world market, is the goal.

Probably too far from Corvallis to be considered close, this is 60 miles generally SE of PDX. This one is in the process of becoming public though, and it's not an "uber" secret, "top' secret, or even secret "ENTNAC" crag anymore. You can carpool out with Corvallisclimber, Tyler has the skinny. I head that Climbmax is paying to make copies but giving them away. That wasn't mine or anyone elses intention to bankrupt them. Folks might consider donating some $ when they pick up a copy. Hopefully we start seeing trip reports with some nice pictures soon. Anyhow, there's a much better one much closer to Corvallis, amazing looking rock - but I'm sworn to secrecy. Sorry.

Are you suggesting that he's a baseless whining and lie spewing, hypocritical neanderthal stooge goon squad fascist thug drivel spewer corporate shill sleazy scapegoating regressive retarded dimwit racist fuck POS quasi-monosyllabic idiot jackass? Or just that he might not love our country cause he's a foreigner?

My lord, I think I might have already been old in 1980!