Layering Critique?

[ERock]

I'm new to alpine climbing, planning on doing Mt Hood in the spring with a guide service and hoping to do Rainer later in the year as well.

 

I'm on a student budget, so trying to find gear that is a little lower price wise and would love some advice.

 

Right now for top layers I am thinking something like:

 

Patagonia Capilene 2 Lightweight Zip-Neck

Patagonia R1 Hoody

Some type of vest ?

Patagonia Simple Guide Hoody

And some form of a wind shirt ? MontBell maybe?

 

Then a Montbell Alpine Light down or UL Down Parka.

 

As for lower layering, I still am figuring that one out so I would love opinions in general.

 

Would also love to hear anyones opinions on mountaineering boots that perhaps are of a lower price? My feet typically are always cold/on the cold side so I know I will need warmer boots than some.

 

 

Thanks for your help!

Edited January 5, 2015 by ERock

[TwoFortyJeff]

That's a lot of Patagonia and Montbell for a student budget.

 

I think that is too many layers for up top. You'll want a baselayer, a warmer midlayer (fleece), a hardshell, and a warm jacket. The windshirt and softshell are a bit redundant. I would go with:

1) Whatever zip neck midweight baselayer you can find on sale

2) Any lightweight fleece (think 100 wt or R1, etc). You can get these at thrift stores, Marshalls, TJMax, etc. Add a thick powerstretch balaclava and you have something cheaper and more versatile than an r1 hoody.

3) The First Ascent hardshells are a great value and always on sale. Try it on with your helmet.

4) Down jackets are also expensive. This is where I would spend most of my money (they last forever). The UL Down will not be warm enough unless the weather is just awesome. The Alpine Light is nice.

 

A windshirt is nice if your hardshell is not breathable and the weather isn't too bad. Softshells are comfy, but too heavy for what you get.

 

Pant layering is easy. Light softshell pants that cut the wind just a little, midweight baselayer, and a hardshell pant. It's nice to have full zips for the hardshell pants, but not necessary.

 

The main thing that matters for boots is fit, so you're just going to have to try on every pair you can find. You can usually score used plastics on craigslist for next to nothing. Definitely get something insulated if you have cold feet.

Edited January 5, 2015 by TwoFortyJeff

[ERock]

I found a couple good deals on ebay/craigslist for used jackets/montbell stuff used which is how I'm figuring I can afford it. (And thanks to a little saving I've been doing)

 

But I've found at least Montbell is cheaper than some other down jackets and the reviews seem good from what I've read on various forums. Good to know the UL down wont be warm enough, I'll cross it off my list now and consider going with the Alpine Light.

 

The Patagonia Simple Guide Hoody I am finding for around 50-70 used which is doable for me vs new for around 150. But I'll check out First Ascent too.

 

For the boots, are there certain brands I should stay away from?

 

Anyway I appreciate the help, theres so much information the web, I get a little lost reading around and trying to compare.

 

-Elizabeth

 

 

[Jake_Gano]

You're climbing with a guide service, so they will probably have a "gear list." That also means you probably have a set date so you may be going in less than bluebird weather. Some of the coldest times of my life have been on Cascade volcanoes, even in the summer. Don't underestimate the ability of a cold, damp wind to suck the life out of you, regardless of the ambient temp.

 

Down has it's time and place, but you'll be happier with a mid-weight synthetic insulated parka. Look on Steep and Cheap.

 

A nice hard shell will be much more versatile than a soft shell top. If it's really raining or windy you'll want a hard shell. If it's not, do you really need to wear a shell? Stay away from anything with too many bells and whistles. They just drive the weight and price up.

 

You can beg, borrow, or steal most everything else, but don't skimp on boots. They're the most personalized piece of gear (e.i. you might be able to fit a friend's coat but not so likely for boots) and will have a major affect on how much you enjoy your climbs. Plus a good set of boots will be very versatile and last a long time.

 

On Hood last year, I had a lightweight synthetic long sleeve t shirt, an R1 hoody, and a half-zip hard shell on top. I think I had a synthetic boxer briefs, a light set of stretch-woven pants, and a set of hardshell pants. In the pack I had a mid-weight synthetic parka and some mid-weight long johns. The weather was less than ideal. Actually it was dogshit, and I packed accordingly. OTOH, I climbed Adams ten years ago in a cotton shirt. So the weather will ultimately dictate what you use and pack, but if you own something like what I've listed above you can get through a pretty wide array of weather conditions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Woodcutter]

I like Mark Twight's layering:

 

When you're moving:

Whatever doesn't make you sweat or freeze & wicks so you don't get wet from sweat. So a synthetic or wool baselayer and a midlayer thin fleece if you run cold or it's cold. Then wear (or carry if the wind is dead) a wind-proof layer which might as well be waterproof but must breathe (Goretex or the like) since this is the PNW & it does rain.

You need to be cool, almost cold while moving, this is key.

 

When you stop moving:

Put on a big fat puffy coat over the top of it all. Synthetic is cheap & good & not really that heavy, it just makes your bag a bit big. Down, in my opinion is a waste of money if you haven't got much.

 

Add more layers if you run cold, I run very hot so I'm usually under-dressed, but freeze my ass off at night so I wear all my clothes when sleeping.

 

Boots?

Scarpa if you have broad feet, La Sportiva if they are narrow. Make sure you can wiggle your toes. Take full gaiters if you get cold feet.

 

NB: This is not gospel, otherwise a bunch of angelic music would play as you read, and it isn't, is it! Ha. Rock on. Have fun.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2015 by Woodcutter

[pcg]

I always carry an extra base layer so I can change it periodically for a dry one. Tie the wet one on the outside of your pack and it will dry quickly in most conditions. My base layer is a short-sleeve Smartwool shirt and either I was born with special sweat or there is some truth to what they say about bacteria not liking wool because the shirt never stinks, even after several days.

[ERock]

Jake: Im looking into sometime in May for Hood, Guide Service for Hood because Im going up with some family members to actually spread a tiny bit my grandmothers ashes on top of her favorite mountain.

 

But for Rainer, planning on just going up with friends who have experience. I'd like to get gear in general that will work for all the Cascade peaks, because I would love to one day climb them all down the road. Stuff that will last hopefully.

 

Do you have any brand of synthetic parkas I should look into? Im not super familiar with synthetics in general.

 

 

Woodcutter: I have a marmot rain jacket just the precip kind that I've had for years, would this perhaps work as a wind layer? or should I look to invest in another more gortex breathable kind.

 

Thanks for the tips on boot brands, I typically have wider feet/like to have more room in my shoes but I will plan on going somewhere to try everything on and not buy those online. Someone said I need to make sure they are comfortable from the start. Is this true? or is there still some break in no matter what?

 

And Pcg: Good to know about the smartwool, I can tend to be pretty sweaty when I work out so thats probably a good thing for me haha.

 

 

 

Again I appreciate all the advice and friendliness.

[tvashtarkatena]

my thang:

 

2 x merino Ts, Sierra Raiding Post often has 200 wt for cheapish.

1 x merino baselayer hoody

1 or 2 light merino sweaters from Goodwill (5 - 12 bucks, they always have em

wind shirt ( any wind breaker will do)

light down hoody (Montbell's UL - prob the cheapest good one)

beanie

baseball cap

sun hat

light syntho puff

lightest hardshell - can be a used POS - i never seem to put mine on

lightest merino long johns

Schoeller pants (REI ACME, etc). ankle draw strings are very nice

wind pants - youll never need em

smartwool socks

gloves as needed

 

mix n match as needed

 

 

[genepires]

MEC in Vancouver made a r1 hoody knock off that is inexpensive and just as good as the original. At least they did years ago. That hoody is my favorite upper piece. worth checking out for the budget guy.

 

I would just change your setup to

 

1 short sleeve synthetic top

1 long sleeve synthetic top

a r1 hoody or mec knockoff

vest is OK ( I don't usually wear one)

windshirt

1 med or lightweight synthetic puffy jacket (spring and winter)

lightweight hardshell.

 

lightweight synthetic bottom (spring and winter)

shoeller pant

lightweight harshell pant (for those trips that hiking out in the rain is not an option).

 

If you can't wear all the layers at one time, then you are bringing to much stuff.

 

[DPS]

Do you have any brand of synthetic parkas I should look into? Im not super familiar with synthetics in general.

 

Here is an excellent review of synthetic jackets. http://cascadeclimbers.com/synthetic-insulated-jacket-layering-review-by-dane-burns/ The highest rated was the Rab Generator Alpine Jacket. Unfortunately, these are no longer available, but fortunately for you I have one for sale, brand new with tags:

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1132796#Post1132796

[Devin27]

I have wide feet as well and love Scarpa brand boots as they seem to have a wider footbed across their line. I have the Mont Blanc GTX for winter and the Charmoz Pro for late spring and early summer climbs. The Charmoz is lighter but not as warm or waterproof as the Mont Blanc, but the MB is pretty heavy. Spend your money on the boots and get ones that fit. A large jacket from the thrift store will keep you warm either way, but a boot that is too tight or too big will ruin your day at best and could be dangerous at worst. Wear them on some local climbs to try them out before the big ones.

 

I climbed Hood in January and Rainier in early June and below is what I carried on both (take this with a grain of salt, I usually am cold when climbing and everyone has different opinions of speed vs weight, I tend to err on the side of caution.

 

wearing

-Smartwool Merino upper and lower base layers- 1/4 zip top with collar to neck

-Northface softshell jacket (not the lightest, but it does the job)

-REI gortex shell jacket

-OR Ferossi light softshell Pants

-North Face Gortex shell pants

 

in my pack

-Buff

-Thin hat for under my helmet

-warm hat (if camping)

-Marmot Zeus 800 fill down jacket

 

You learn best through experience. If you can get out on some local area climbs or snowshoes, that would be the best way to see how your system works without being committed to a big climb.

 

[G-spotter]

Somewhere out there is a Will Gadd blog rant on why synthetics are better than wool for active sports that more beginner people should read before they buy a bunch of wool base layers.

 

 

[Bronco]

A few observations based on my experience:

 

Synthetic Pros: Dry faster, wick better, much cheaper than wool and lighter garment weight (if you're a weight weenie), a lot of different colors to choose from.

 

Woolie Pros: Don't retain stink, seems like when it's warmer or sweating a lot the slow drying properties of wool reduce the amount of sweating out. I may be wrong on that but it's my perception (and perspiration).

 

I wear a wool base layer riding my bike to work so I don't arrive so smelly and my shirt doesn't stink up the office, even after several rides. For climbing, I'll generally wear synthetic for the bit of weight savings and ability to quickly dry it out in camp.

[DPS]

I generally agree with Bronco. I find wool too hot for anything but winter. I always feel clammy when wearing wool base layers.

[tvashtarkatena]

synthetics neither dry faster nor are they lighter than today's merino garments. for most folks merino is far less clammy than synthetic. No comparison in ny experience. Not everyone can wear merino next to their skin, however. Most can.

 

Icebreaker Anatomica 150 fabric Ts are excellent for summer use.

 

synthetics are cheaper and more durable. for me - comfort, performance, and not smelling like synthetic ass are more than worth the $.

 

My recommendation: borrow or spring for a merino T and compare it on a trip the equivalent synthetic.

[jared_j]

Big takeaway: synthetic vs wool sounds like personal preference.

 

This person's view: Not all synthetics are created equal (nor are all wools).

 

In my experience, the breathability of Patagonia Capilene 2 is worlds different than any of the other synthetics of similar weight available. I notice this most during high exertion (e.g. running or going uphill hard).

 

I've only tried Patagonia's and Ibex's wool offerings (and that was 3-4 years ago), and neither held a candle to the Capilene 2 in terms of breathability (sample size N=1).

 

Breathability of a baselayer isn't the end-all be-all, of course. I care about it much more when wearing it trail running in the Issaquah Alps than I do trudging steadily up the volcanoes at a moderate / low intensity.

Edited January 6, 2015 by jared_j

[Bronco]

synthetics neither dry faster nor are they lighter than today's merino garments. for most folks merino is far less clammy than synthetic. No comparison in ny experience. Not everyone can wear merino next to their skin, however. Most can.

 

Icebreaker Anatomica 150 fabric Ts are excellent for summer use.

 

synthetics are cheaper and more durable. for me - comfort, performance, and not smelling like synthetic ass are more than worth the $.

 

My recommendation: borrow or spring for a merino T and compare it on a trip the equivalent synthetic.

 

Trashy, you got me thinking about this important issue so I conducted some "research" so I can sleep good tonight knowing we've correctly identified the critical elements of base layer selection.

 

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing.html#.VKxFnMZN2FI

 

According to that article, wool is slightly heavier and dries 50% slower than synthetic. Despite that, most of the testers seem to prefer the wool for comfort and lack of stink. I like each, just for different purposes. I wonder if I can get one of the clown shirts they used in the test, then I'd have the best of both worlds.

[tvashtarkatena]

I've personally found the opposite. Big improvement in wicking and drying with wool over Cap 2 - (still got 2 shirts i use to run in). Those who've found wool base layers too insulating should try Icebreaker 150 fabric garments. Yeah.

 

With mid layers I've found the drying time to be roughly comparable between the two materials - but the merino is more comfy for exertion.

 

Moving heavily there's also no comparison for me - merino is less clammy and therefore warmer. It's also less brutal than syntho when the sun comes out and it gets a bit on the warm side.

 

My skin's good with merino (which doesn't feel like other wool), though.

[tvashtarkatena]

I like the Icebreaker undies, too. I've used Underarmour and microfibre and that action sucked schweaties.

[montypiton]

Erock

great suggestions here, and as you can see, many workable options. my 2c worth:

whether you go wool or synthetic, get your base layer the thinnest you can find -- "silk-weight" or such like.

same for shells - get the lightest, thinnest you can find. your Marmot precip jacket is a good example - thin, light, effective - as long as it fits generously enough to accommodate a "meaningful" puffy.

the only time I use soft-shells is when I expect to deal with abrasion (think technical mixed climbing)- and then the softshell replaces both a light insulating layer AND a shell layer. most trips a light shell with appropriate insulation is more weight effective.

I prefer much lighter outer pants than most of my partners. my favorite for years has been the Mammut Courmeyeur - spendy, but LIGHT, very breathable, and I've rappeled waterfalls in them and remained dry! (Schoeller is worth the $) - so - silkweight longjohns, schoeller pants, and if the temp is gonna be pushing 0F, add a second layer of longjohns ("expediton weight) between them. (caveat - the schoeller pants are relatively fragile, and mine have an abundance of aftermarket stitching after a decade or so) In EXTREME cold (think arctic, say -30F) I'll carry puffy pants, and typically won't wear them unless I have to stop for extended period.

for cold feet, consider supergators - you can find them insulated, and they will make almost any decent single boot more than warm enough for anything in the Cascades. (I've known fanatics to climb Denali in single alpine boots with insulated supergators, although I wouldn't recommend trying it) also, think about sizing up and doubling up on socks -- likely be warmer than buying a heavier boot. In my opinion, most buy more boot than they need, end up just carrying unnecessary weight on their feet.

although for the most part I prefer lots of thin layers to fewer thick ones, one exception is I almost always carry a relatively big puffy. I like the option of throwing on a "belay jacket" at quick stops without having to "layer up". occasionally it feels like overkill, but in the event of a forced bivvy, it makes life bearable (even, on occasion, comfortable).

synthetic vs down & wool? I've been using down for over forty years, and don't find that much problem keeping it dry - but that could be "practice" - I am careful about it. I've tried synthetics as they have evolved, and repeatedly gone back to my down. but for a less experienced mountaineer, the later generation synthetics are likely more forgiving. my experience with merino wool - my wife complains that my merino stinks just like my polyester, so for me it's a wash (bad pun) both seem to work, so I just buy whatever's on sale...

a suggested purchase tactic -- get the minimum, take a short practice trip or several, add layers or items only as you need them to stay comfortable. this way you're less likely to end up with a closet full of "expedition weight" or overspecialized stuff that you won't want to carry or use on most trips. an example from my own experience: I used to own a big down sleeping bag that I used two seasons on Denali. It was more bag than I needed or wanted for all but the coldest trips. I get much more use, these days, out of a pair of lighter bags - an ultralight 3-season bag and a "pounder" for summer that I use inside the 3-season bag for extreme cold. I don't have a -30F bag taking up space in the closet anymore...

[olyclimber]

Wow I thought it was the E-rock! Miss that guy. Welcome to the forums Erock. If you're on a budget I honestly wouldn't worry that much about it...just get SOMETHING (wool or synthetic) that you can afford. Either are going to be good enough. The most valuable commodity is time.

 

I like the stuff you mention: Patagonia Capilene, Montbell (anything), and the wool stuff that the others have mentioned.

 

I think the best thing to do is get out...go climb "lesser" peaks. The volcanoes are great, but I have to say I've had just as much fun climbing some lower peaks and then you'll get a good idea what sort of gear and clothing keeps you most comfortable. Not sure where you're located, but the Cascade and Olympics have tons of less committing adventures awaiting that will help you get your layer and other gear dialed.

[ERock]

Thanks for all the advice! Lots of information to process but generally same type of ideas.

 

OlyClimber: Sorry for the confusion with the E-Rock lol. My last names Rockett so its a sn i use sometimes. I live on the Olympic Peninsula, so a ferry from Seattle or lots of fun out this way. Issue really is, as much as I'd love to get experience on lesser peaks, I really dont know anyone who is into climbing.

 

I've been wanting to get more into it for years and am finally pushing myself into it but the most testing I can do on my own is long hikes/snow shoe hikes around Hurricane Ridge area. Would love to have the opportunity to find someone who might be down to mentor me, but not really sure where to look for something like that. If you have any ideas?

 

I looked into classes (mountaineers etc) but I just cant afford something like that at this moment.

Edited January 7, 2015 by ERock

[olyclimber]

Alpinism is often a ton of hiking or walking in the backwoods with a little climbing/skiing in the middle, so sounds like you're on your way. And basic orienteering is probably the best skill to start with if you don't have it already.

Best advice I can give you is to become a hoover for knowledge. Buy Freedom of the Hills, learn some technique. Do your best to extend your knowledge yourself. Ask questions here, or even other climbing related places on the web.

 

Post in the partners forum. Be honest about your experience and ability. Don't be afraid to mention that you don't know much, that is where we all started. I know I still don't know much compared to a lot of people here. There are some people from the Olypen who come to this website...that is actually where I'm from, but now I live in Seattle.

 

From hiking and snowshowing, the next step up is to scramble. There are tons of great easier scrambles in the Olympics. Get the Climbers Guide to the Olympics if you don't have it, and start reading about all the routes you can do...just pick the easier grades and start there. Research routes/climbs/scrambles you want to do, read TRs here, look up others peoples notes on SummitPost. PM people here who have posted routes you would want to do if you have questions. There are lots of climbs that are little more than hikes. And of course there are hikes that end up being something that resembles climbing. Go do the easier stuff...just get on it solo if you have to, and don't be afraid to turn around if you feel out of your comfort level. That can sometimes be a climbers best intuition.

 

There have been some amazing climbers that have gotten their start here. I wouldn't go as far as crediting CC.com for their start, the passion obviously came from within, but this website did serve as a valuable resource for information, stoke, and partners as they got going. But I think it is also important to stress that there are all types of abilities here, and the most important factor is your own enthusiasm and drive.

 

The best magnet for climbing partners (experienced or not) is the ambition stoke to climb and an idea: lets go try this particular adventure/climb/route/mountain.