Mammut wants permanently placed quickdraws to go.

[CoffeeBiner]

 

From Mazama Blog

[Buckaroo]

Instead of trying to do away with something, which is going to be hard to do, why not try and solve the problem?

 

Like how about steel carabiners?

[hangontight]

they are concerned about extended wear and tear cuasing serated edges that can cut ropes. It makes sense to me

[ScaredSilly]

Instead of trying to do away with something, which is going to be hard to do, why not try and solve the problem?

 

Like how about steel carabiners?

 

Steel caribiners have the same issues and aluminum caribiners. The only difference is the amount of time. A good example are rap station chains. Look at the wear they get from idiots who TR and lower down from them instead using their own gear and rappelling respectively.

 

That said I agree it is going to be hard to solve unless a mfg comes up with a solution.

[ivan]

just make'em out of mithril

[matt_warfield]

Instead of trying to do away with something, which is going to be hard to do, why not try and solve the problem?

 

Like how about steel carabiners?

 

Steel caribiners have the same issues and aluminum caribiners. The only difference is the amount of time. A good example are rap station chains. Look at the wear they get from idiots who TR and lower down from them instead using their own gear and rappelling respectively.

 

That said I agree it is going to be hard to solve unless a mfg comes up with a solution.

 

Okay, a manifesto is in order here.

 

It's all okay as long as each climbing area has a person or a committee who can without judgment just know shit and DO shit. Aluminum biners, steel fasteners, fixed pins, bolts of all sizes, coldshuts, nylon draws, permadrawas all have a lifetime! You will never keep people from lowering off 5 Gallon Buckets at Smith or Rainy Day Women or Chronic at E32. Let's just help keep them all alive.

 

Placing or replacing proper hardware can be just as rewarding as a redpoint.

 

This message is cosigned by Todd Skinner and Dan Osman and a cast of thousands of others who could have benefited from knowledge of or respect for aging effects.

 

The rant continues:

 

Bolts: diameter and length. If you have ever taken a fall on a 1/4" bolt your pucker has probably never recovered. If it is 3/8" or bigger you say ah.... and the next day is okay.

 

If you have rapped off a single piece of webbing of unknown age your pucker is probably still significant.

 

If you have rapped off of or put yourself in danger on lead with a 15 yr. old piece, your pucker has probably never recovered.

 

If you haven't lubed your cams or taken off the sediment so they work properly, your pucker prolly never knew what happened.

 

Or when you dropped your rope on the garage floor where you changed your oil last week.

 

Or you can eschew all equip and go free soloing which worked for a while for Derek Hersey and John Bachar.

 

I may rant some more but then it wouldn't be a happy new year.

 

The good news: take care of business with your equipment and your judgment and live a long and happy life.

 

AND HELP TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAVORITE CRAG.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2013 by matt_warfield

[Riley81]

All fixed gear should be considered suspect no matter what the circumstance.

[Drederek]

A good example are rap station chains. Look at the wear they get from idiots who TR and lower down from them instead using their own gear and rappelling respectively.

 

I have seen people at Smith toproping Double Trouble thru aluminum rap rings with holes already worn in them. After telling the girl it was not safe and advising her to have her guy lower her slowly, her bf told her (and I) what an asshole I was and to keep going. We left the area quickly. I notice that most rap rings in sport areas are solid steel these days. Stewardship of this kind of gear may be the most viable (and nonregulatory) answer here.

[mattp]

If you have ever taken a fall on a 1/4" bolt your pucker has probably never recovered.

 

Spoken like a true youngster. I remember the day when we used to think nothing of falling a long way on a 1/4" hanger with a Leeper hanger on it.

 

I've done a lot of bolt replacement and I agree with your point here, but I had a laugh when I read this.

 

I totally support the suggestion that stainless steel rings be used wherever heavy use is anticipated. It is also important that climbers take care of the crags where they climb, and I hope all climbers will support such efforts.

 

I would add, too, that I've been one of those guys who interfered with somebody else's day to suggest that they were not being smart about their use of gear, their placement of their baby in a car seat sitting at the base of a cliff known for loose rock, or whatever, and I have had both good and bad results with this kind of intervention. I think all of us need to be responsible climbers, and that includes speaking up when we see something dangerous, but I'm probably not saying anything that folks here have not already thought about to suggest that our words of sage advice or our urge of sound practices or even our replacement of "bad" gear with "good," may not always draw appreciation.

[ivan]

All fixed gear should be considered suspect no matter what the circumstance.

except that #4 on the gendarme pitch of stuart - that thing will be there even after the earth is swallowed by a red giant

[ivan]

the railroad spikes in index oughta be good for several more millenia as well

[montypiton]

The owner of a climbing shop in Bend, mid-eighties, showed me a rappel ring he'd removed from the Beard at Smith. It was one of those old skinny rolled aluminum rings. I'd never known, before that time, that those rings were of hollow stock - the entire inner circumference of the ring had been worn through all the way around, leaving a ring of what I'd call aluminum "horseshoe stock". Apparently users, seeing that the inner wall of the ring was worn through, had simply rotated the ring so that the rope would bear on a less worn area -- and this had obviously happened repeatedly over a substantial time period. I suggest it ought to be universal protocol that you never lower a load through a resident ring or carabiner, whether aluminum, steel, or any other material. If the ring or carabiner is resident, the only acceptable descent is rappel.

 

Rather than worry about being polite, I will suggest that when someone chooses to go ahead and load an obviously damaged piece of gear and it fails, that's simply natural selection. Prohibition won't fix that.

 

I've seen guys with forty years of climbing history make some surprising mistakes - witness John Long's recent accident...

 

My regular partners and I make a practice of continually inspecting one another's equipment and practice. A couple of months ago at Frenchman's, Fred Dunham was kind enough to point out that I'd failed to complete my tie-in. That's the same error that put Long in the hospital...

 

I'm inclined to agree that ALL fixed gear is suspect, and ought to be closely inspected before risking loading it. I prefer protection I've placed myself.

 

I have to agree with Mattp about feeling obligated to speak up when we see hazards that can be reduced. If someone takes offense, it's their loss.

 

I welcome it when someone questions something they see me doing. Sometimes it's an opportunity to show them something that may work better than their usual practice, and sometimes it's an opportunity to thank them for saving my ass.

[matt_warfield]

All fixed gear should be considered suspect no matter what the circumstance.

except that #4 on the gendarme pitch of stuart - that thing will be there even after the earth is swallowed by a red giant

 

I don't think anyone has complained about that piece. The memo on "overcamming" may have blown away from the top of the gendarme.

 

And I have been chewed out many times for informing climbers about safety. I will leave any area immediately where it looks dangerous and folks don't wan't to listen.

 

On the other hand I watched a dude that works at Redpoint take an intentional 100 footer off Heinous Cling (full) at Smith. Then there is the king swing at Scarface. You sure as hell want to have good hardware then because climbers are just nuts sometimes but we still want to keep them alive.

Edited January 8, 2013 by matt_warfield

[matt_warfield]

the railroad spikes in index oughta be good for several more millenia as well

 

I clip those every time. They just aren't at an opportune location. Placing them at every crux would have been better. What were they thinking.

[Jens]

Clipping the draws on Powerdive @ Smith last time I took a spin was quite scary. Some of them were as sharp as razors.

 

I clipped one draw @ Mt. Charleston once that was sharper than a razor.

 

I'm surprised we don't hear of more rope failures.

[bwrts]

fixed draws are lame. I don't understand why it became the norm other than climbers can be very lazy. i.e. very difficult to remove draws every time you're done working the "proj". i say if you leave it, shouldn't it really be "left booty"?

another pet peeve of mine is TRing on the fixed lowering/rappel point (chain, fixed carabiners, etc.). If you plan to TR, add your own slings to the anchor, then remove when rappelling. pretty easy to do and also saves the wear on fixed hardware...big time. Chain/fixed biners or quicklinks are not cheap!

[Plaidman]

another pet peeve of mine is TRing on the fixed lowering/rappel point (chain, fixed carabiners, etc.). If you plan to TR, add your own slings to the anchor, then remove when rappelling. pretty easy to do and also saves the wear on fixed hardware...big time. Chain/fixed biners or quicklinks are not cheap!

 

With you whole heartily on this one. Very bad ethic to top rope on the fixed anchor. I was taught better.

 

 

Plaid

[DRep]

And Raindawg in 5... 4... 3... 2... and...