Had Your Flu Shots Yet?

[Kimmo]

call me slow on the slow bus, but damn, i hadn't seen it so up close and personal before.

 

maybe it has something to do with bong toke bob's prescriptions?

 

but that usually mellows a soul out. hmmm.

 

i don't want to make light of it if it truly is an issue, but it's hard not to wonder when you see someone stomping around so much in a loose and disjointed way.

[Water]

ur talking about burchey, right?

[JosephH]

It really blows my mind how many people let medical establishment experiment on them without one question.

Agreed.

Dude, you must be right if the bone is rallying to your side. And you think there is some form of medicine that doesn't represent the "medical establishment experimenting on us"?

[jon]

I wonder if you guys have as much concern about the food you put in your body as you do vaccines. There is a lot of live vaccines in food these days.

[Kimmo]

I wonder if you guys have as much concern about the food you put in your body as you do vaccines. There is a lot of live vaccines in food these days.

 

ya do the best ya can. organic, ideally mainly vegetable based.

[JosephH]

Case in point:

 

Heart Failure in Older Breast Cancer Patients Linked to Medication

 

ScienceDaily (Nov. 14, 2012) — Heart failure is a relatively common complication in older women with breast cancer, but the risk is even higher in those patients treated with adjuvant trastuzumab (Herceptin©), Yale School of Medicine researchers report in the current issue of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.

 

The researchers conducted this study because older women who are at higher risk of decreased heart function were often excluded from randomized clinical trials of trastuzumab, which is used to treat breast tumors that over-express human epidermal growth factor receptor-2 (HER-2). Past clinical trials in younger, healthier women showed improved survival, but also increased heart complications linked to trastuzumab, especially when combined with a frequently used therapy called anthracycline chemotherapy.

In other words we're somewhat desperate for effective cancer treatments and leap on things which appear to have an effective risk/benefit ratio. That evaluation may or may not include testing in every possible age group, sex, race, etc. Sometimes we get it only partially right or entirely wrong, but if you had an aggressive breast cancer how safe would you want the "medical establishment" to play it?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Case in point:

 

Heart Failure in Older Breast Cancer Patients Linked to Medication

 

ScienceDaily (Nov. 14, 2012) — Heart failure is a relatively common complication in older women with breast cancer, but the risk is even higher in those patients treated with adjuvant trastuzumab (Herceptin©), Yale School of Medicine researchers report in the current issue of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.

 

The researchers conducted this study because older women who are at higher risk of decreased heart function were often excluded from randomized clinical trials of trastuzumab, which is used to treat breast tumors that over-express human epidermal growth factor receptor-2 (HER-2). Past clinical trials in younger, healthier women showed improved survival, but also increased heart complications linked to trastuzumab, especially when combined with a frequently used therapy called anthracycline chemotherapy.

In other words we're somewhat desperate for effective cancer treatments and leap on things which appear to have an effective risk/benefit ratio. That evaluation may or may not include testing in every possible age group, sex, race, etc. Sometimes we get it only partially right or entirely wrong - if you had an aggressive breast cancer how safe would you want the "medical establishment" to play it?

 

Thin the herd!

[JosephH]

Well, if you get an aggressive cancer you be sure and tell the docs you want them to be ultra-conservative and only do things we know are 100% sure deals with no possible unintended consequences and see how you make out.

[Kimmo]

Well, if you get an aggressive cancer you be sure and tell the docs you want them to be ultra-conservative and only do things we know are 100% sure deals with no possible unintended consequences and see how you make out.

 

right after receiving the chicken pox and flu vaccine, because those are deadlier than any cancer.

[JosephH]

You keep telling yourself that despite overwhelming ** gasp ** facts to the contrary. Let me guess where you stand on sasquatch, UFOs and the moon landing.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Well, if you get an aggressive cancer you be sure and tell the docs you want them to be ultra-conservative and only do things we know are 100% sure deals with no possible unintended consequences and see how you make out.

 

right after receiving the chicken pox and flu vaccine, because those are deadlier than any cancer.

 

And if I am healthy I should automatically take something that could hurt me 'cos that is the EXACT SAME THING as having cancer...

 

[Kimmo]

You keep telling yourself that despite overwhelming ** gasp ** facts to the contrary. Let me guess where you stand on sasquatch, UFOs and the moon landing.

 

joe, you missed my point.

 

and kk got it.

[olyclimber]

[kevino]

4. but I'm also one of those limp-dicked morons who trusts my doctor and 1000's of scientists over my own opinions. It seems to be working for me so far.

3 years ago I went 3 times to my physician, about feeling tired and having cyclical abdominal pain. He suggested I have elevated blood sugar levels, and wanted to prescribe statins and anti-depressants! It turned out at the end I was suffering from chronic appendicitis (for which his meds would do fuck all, except give me muscle cramps and muscle pain)! Fuck, if he just listened to what I was saying I could have taken 2 weeks of antibiotics instead of having emergency appendectomy with a price tag of 20K. Guess what- also my blood sugar returned to normal as well.

No I take their advice, but I make decisions myself. In vast majority of cases of injuries I see daily, I would say physicians are about 25% right. In 75% they provide a bad advice.

 

What were your presenting symptoms?

[matt_warfield]

Crocodile juveniles have a 2% chance of achieving adulthood.

 

We are kicking their asses despite analysis, bitching, moaning, and spraying.

[kevino]

Interesting thread. A lot of the typical responses.

 

JayB, I really like your posts and agree with your logic and using of published peer reviewed articles, not random .com websites and people's comments on articles.

 

I would be curious to hear about people's background and basic understanding of immunology, genetics, especially regarding autoimmunity.

 

Heck one could argue that the people who got autism after their vaccine already were predisposed with a genetic immunological hypersensitivity and all it needed was a trigger, whether it was the flu vaccine or any old virus.

 

There is not deny pharmaceutical companies are making bank and causing problems, as mentioned earlier regarding some shortages. I can't recall how many times in the last six months in my ED have we been out of meds due to manufacture shortages. However to argue that medicine is based on little science and the drugs are of no use its ridiculous. Point in case is whooping cough - way to go vashon island. Suddenly young kids are dying from an easily preventable disease.

 

Another case, how often do you hear of scarlet fever and associated cardiac issues? Very rare, because we have a great antibiotic against group A strep that prevents the infection from spreading. Of course the antibiotics are being over prescribed, and while a large amount of that is due to poor clinicians, a large chunk of that blame can be attributed to uneducated and sue happy patients. There was a great article in the New England Journal of Medicine recently that discussed the cultural change of Americans to believe that pain is a bad thing and should not be tolerated under any circumstances, and that if they are in any pain then their physician is not doing their job well. Now enter, narcotics and the associated addictions, overdoses, etc.

 

Finally, anyone who has spent time working in medicine and science knows that it is not perfect. For anyone to think that something is always 100% safe and effective is living in a dream world; and same goes to anyone who thinks that side effects and outliers are 100% avoidable.

 

Hope everyone has fun tearing this post apart - need to get back to studying behavioral medicine so I know how to deal with all you crazy fuckers in clinic

Edited November 15, 2012 by kevino

[jon]

There are viruses that known to cause cancer.

Many of these virus live in a very latent state and have numerous methods of evading the immune system.

Most of these viruses are so good at this that by current methods detection would be unlikely.

Many of these viruses have a b-cell tropism.

These viruses can only replicate when the b-cell is undergoing cell division.

When you are immunized the presence of antigen illicit a large b-cell response in the germinal centers (centres in canada)..

This stimulation causes b-cells to replicate.

.......

 

[matt_warfield]

Good post. I respect knowledge and experience.

[Pete_H]

3 years ago I went 3 times to my physician, about feeling tired and having cyclical abdominal pain. He suggested I have elevated blood sugar levels, and wanted to prescribe statins and anti-depressants! It turned out at the end I was suffering from chronic appendicitis (for which his meds would do fuck all, except give me muscle cramps and muscle pain)! Fuck, if he just listened to what I was saying I could have taken 2 weeks of antibiotics instead of having emergency appendectomy with a price tag of 20K. Guess what- also my blood sugar returned to normal as well.

No I take their advice, but I make decisions myself. In vast majority of cases of injuries I see daily, I would say physicians are about 25% right. In 75% they provide a bad advice.

 

What were your presenting symptoms?

 

A sore asshole probably caused by enormous horsecock.

[kevino]

There are viruses that known to cause cancer.

Many of these virus live in a very latent state and have numerous methods of evading the immune system.

Most of these viruses are so good at this that by current methods detection would be unlikely.

Many of these viruses have a b-cell tropism.

These viruses can only replicate when the b-cell is undergoing cell division.

When you are immunized the presence of antigen illicit a large b-cell response in the germinal centers (centres in canada)..

This stimulation causes b-cells to replicate.

.......

 

By that logic any sort of infection that would activate the adaptive immune system would cause an immune response and B-cell replication, therefore unleashing your said cancer making virus.

 

Not saying your logic is wrong, just that its not specific to immunizations, which goes back to the point I made earlier in my previous post.

Edited November 15, 2012 by kevino

[ivan]

fuckit, don't know nor care particularly how it happened, but reading my histories of the past millennium i know i ought to be pretty stoked that, whether due to the vaccines i've had or not, i've never gotten tetanus, diphtheria, whooping cough, measles, smallpox, polio, mumps, hepatitis, etc.

[AlpineK]

Don't worry Kimmo the authorities are hot on the trail of corporate executives wanted for murder.

 

Antivirus Bodygaurd Caught

 

The British bodyguard of John McAfee, the fugitive founder of the anti-virus software maker, was detained by Belize’s police today as they investigate the murder of a U.S. citizen in the Central American country.

 

Belize’s police detained 29-year-old bodyguard William Mulligan and 22-year-old Stefanie Mulligan today, according to a statement today from Raphael Martinez, a spokesman for the National Security Ministry. The arrests followed a Nov. 11 search of McAfee’s home on the island of Ambergris Caye in which they found two unregistered shotguns, Martinez said. William Mulligan was living at the residence.

[JosephH]

And if I am healthy I should automatically take something that could hurt me 'cos that is the EXACT SAME THING as having cancer...

Actually, I didn't miss the point. The attempted conjunction of cancer and the incredible miscalculation of risk of 'hurt' was what I was responding to. You 'get' both cancer and the flu (and there's a distinct possibility a lot of cancers are virally initiated). One we don't really have much in the way of anything specific you can do to avoid getting it, the other we do.

 

So the huge leap necessary to put the risk of adverse reaction from the flu vaccine on par with the risk of flu virus and cancer is in and of itself astounding, but to then jump on stage and declare, "why would I voluntarily 'harm' myself" with said vaccine is about on par with the thinking used to accuse women of witchcraft.

[Kimmo]

Actually, I didn't miss the point.

 

i think you did.

 

your original quote:

 

Well, if you get an aggressive cancer you be sure and tell the docs you want them to be ultra-conservative and only do things we know are 100% sure deals with no possible unintended consequences and see how you make out.

 

 

is it reasonable for you to conflate someone's choices when faced with an aggressive form of cancer to someone's choices regarding the flu vaccine, or chicken pox vaccine?

[Kimmo]

re: cancer and flu:

 

One we don't really have much in the way of anything specific you can do to avoid getting it, the other we do.

 

did you read the OP link regarding the flu vaccine? efficacy highly questioned.

 

and yea there are specific things one can do to avoid cancer: don't be a fat slob smoking and drinking all the time, for one thing....

 

 

So the huge leap necessary to put the risk of adverse reaction from the flu vaccine on par with the risk of flu virus and cancer

 

why did you start conflating the flu vaccine's risk with cancer? isn't this a bit of a contorted jump?

 

regarding flu vaccine benefits vs risks, again, i'd point you back to the OP link.

 

other considerations:

 

THL concluded in February 2011 that there is a clear connection between Pandemrix vaccination campaign of 2009 and 2010 and narcolepsy epidemic in Finland. There was a nine times higher probability to get narcolepsy with vaccination than without it. Total of 52 cases of narcolepsy have been found in Finland during 2009–2010 and 90% of these children had taken Pandemrix vaccination. Authorities believe that the number of cases may still increase.[25][26]

 

At the end of March 2011, an MPA press release stated: "Results from a Swedish registry based cohort study indicate a 4-fold increased risk of narcolepsy in children and adolescents below the age of 20 vaccinated with Pandemrix, compared to children of the same age that were not vaccinated." [27] The same study found no increased risk in adults who were vaccinated with Pandemrix. While cautioning that the increase in risk for children is still uncertain in magnitude, it recommends they not be vaccinated.

 

link

 

australia suspends flu vaccines

 

 

"why would I voluntarily 'harm' myself" with said vaccine is about on par with the thinking used to accuse women of witchcraft.

 

joe, many things in life are cost/benefit analyses. the flu shot is one. hey if you wanna get a vaccine that even parts of our medical establishment questions the efficacy of, does carry some risk, and proffers (questionable) protection for a benign illness, then go for it.