Real Question

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Why has no one yet called BS on KKK's assertion?

 

Per capita education spening.

 

 

Because I am going by absolute dollars per student, and there's plenty of places you can find that statistic.

 

 

 

[kevbone]

There always is enough money to spend on occupying other countries....especially ones that did not attack us. It goes on for years and years and years. Spending billions every week. Yet our schools are underfunded year after year.

 

Makes no sense.

 

You are a retard.

 

Please be more specific.

[rob]

But when I'm in the public school as a volunteer all I see is the teachers working their butts off all year, including the summer, to do the best for their kids. And taking money out of their pockets for supplies to make sure the kids get what they need.

 

That's true. But wanna guess what would happen if we added $$ to any school district's budget? The last people to get it would be the teachers. I don't know what the solution *is* but I know it is *not* throwing more money at a bureaucracy that has so many issues with it.

 

 

Not a bad point but I bet the military industry has as much bureaucracy as education, and as much waste, and yet it's never underfunded. Priorities? Food for thought, no?

[Phil K]

[edit: In response to KKK, above]

 

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Shall we argue about which figure is more significant? Either way, that same webiste (I am not vouching for the accuracy of one source, BTW) puts the US at #3 behind Switzerland and Austria. I'm really not interested in spending much more time going back and forth over this, but I do think that if you want to make a point, sticking to actual facts is appropriate.

 

Oh, and we do spend too flipping much on Defense. Duh.

 

And you forgot the pagetop snaffle.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Philonius

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Not a bad point but I bet the military industry has as much bureaucracy as education, and as much waste, and yet it's never underfunded. Priorities? Food for thought, no?

 

I am just countering boner's idiotic assertion that there is never enough money for education. I really don't care to engage in the other subject and talk about something totally different (military spending). Personally I lean isolationist and would rather we sell off our bases and let other people kill eachother if they want to. But that view does not change the fact that we spend more per child than most other nations with a lower ROI on that expense.

 

BTW, if you want food for thought, would you not agree that human beings in general always seem to find money to kill each other over feeding themselves, for example (N Korea and India/Pakistan come to mind)

[kevbone]

I am just countering boner's idiotic assertion that there is never enough money for education.

 

Laying off teacher after teacher while the we continue to invade countries and spend 2 billion a week is not a idiotic assertion that there is never enough money for education.

 

I could care less about how much we spend on education per student. That point is pointless.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

There always is enough money to spend on occupying other countries....especially ones that did not attack us. It goes on for years and years and years. Spending billions every week. Yet our schools are underfunded year after year.

 

Makes no sense.

 

You are a retard.

 

Please be more specific.

 

Have you figure out yet how your kids have become 6 and 4 years old?

[kevbone]

There always is enough money to spend on occupying other countries....especially ones that did not attack us. It goes on for years and years and years. Spending billions every week. Yet our schools are underfunded year after year.

 

Makes no sense.

 

You are a retard.

 

Please be more specific.

 

Have you figure out yet how your kids have become 6 and 4 years old?

 

Nope have not figured that out yet.

[ivan]

perhaps we should just merge public education with the military?

[JasonG]

You mean mandatory military service? Seems to work well for a lot of countries. The politicians might think longer about sending the boys (and girls) overseas when it is actually their kids they are sending.

 

RE: Quality of education. There is no substitute for spending time with your kids. It seems like many parents today would like the schools to raise and educate their kids. Personally, I think we would see test scores and many other things in society improve if one parent stayed at home or worked very part-time. Drive an old car, consume less, move to a smaller place, whatever you have to do. The best teachers in the world often fail if the kids aren't getting support/direction/encouragement/time at home. I think Jim already nailed this, but it bears repeating.

[mattp]

As to dollars per student, it has been asserted by KK that we spend more than other nations. That may well be so. But assuming KK is correct, and without any information about how our expenditures break down as opposed to other nations, it is hard to draw any conclusion other than that education is expensive here (is it those evil teachers unions or the special education laws, a different method of accounting for those expenses, or something else?). I disagree if KK is suggesting that simply cutting funding would be an improvement.

[ivan]

how are our kids supposed to learn when they can't field-strip an m-14 in under 30 seconds before their old enough to bleed?!?

[pink]

perhaps we should just merge public education with the military?

 

[video:youtube] [video:youtube]

[ScottP]

I am just about to start my 21st year teaching in the public school system. In that time I have had 5 different principals, and even more assistant principals. Without exception, it has been clear from the beginning that these admins primary goal was to further their careers, and improving the pedagogy in the building was secondary. As for the district level admins, they are politicians. They have no real accountability, other than "test scores" (which is about as bogus a measure of success as there is). Given that these scores are the default measure of the success or failure of a school's ability to provide a good education, teaching to the test is the focus of these admins, and many teachers who buy into the programs coming from the top. We are asked to focus our attention on those students who scored 2's on the test, in the hope that they can be moved up to 3's, which is passing. Those who score 1's aren't mentioned. In discussions with my last principal about how to support struggling students, he side-stepped the issue, finishing the conversation with, "They wouldn't pass the test anyway."

 

As Jim said, reduce class sizes is a huge goal for improving student learning. On a daily basis, I can't help Saul, who has processing delays and still keep borderline-genius Kelsey fully engaged due to her ADHD, while making sure the 30 other students in the room get what they need to gain the skills, knowledge and understanding of what we are studying,in a 50-minute period. It's an untenable situation.

 

Improving the lot of education in this country is a very complex issue, with many variables, but making those at the top as accountable as everyone seems to believe the teachers should be, and reducing the number of students in each class is where I'd start.

[ivan]

you in washington, scott? my school's piloting the new tpep system this year, for both principals and teachers, and i'm one of the guinea pigs in theory at least, both ends of the food chain are to be evaluated annually now, and test scores are (again, in theory) supposedly just a small part of the whole shebang - the whole state will be using it soon hereafter...

[ScottP]

I'm in the Edmonds SD. The district is rolling out the beginnings of the new system this year...mostly an intro to what is coming. I wish it was going to include district admins.

[JasonG]

While I don't doubt smaller class sizes would help matters, have class sizes changed much over the decades (say post 1960)? The reason I ask is that many college professors (Cliff Mass is probably way more vocal than most) lament the loss of proficiency in math and science in incoming freshman in the last 10-15 years. I'm trying to understand what is driving this trend (or are they imagining things?).... Scott, Ivan, and others who are teachers, what do you most attribute the trend of declining student performance in the math and sciences? Teaching to the test? Poor curricula? Increasing lack of parental support? Or?

 

I have two young boys who will entering the public system in a couple years so I am starting to take notice of these things. Thanks!

[ivan]

i'm not convinced the america of the 2010s is churning out fewer decent scientists than the america that won the cold war and put meat-puppets on the moon as there were certainly plenty of bushels of brain-dead bastards then too - the relative decline of our land compared to many other locations seems a logical result of their increasing industrial and modernization as well - that said, the candidates for our perceived decline are numerous: a decline in overall living standards for a broad-swath of the country, an upward spiral of adoration of dipshit reality sideshows by the young, a tendency to reduce complex problem-solving down to simple tests, problems in finding qualified folks willing to teach difficult subjects for far less than they can get in the private field w/ the same skills, etc., etc. - if you can figure it all out, be sure to write a book about it to add to the billions of others already out there on the subject!

[shaoleung]

We spend shit loads, more than any other country, and the ROI we are getting on that investment blows.

 

Actually, Denmark, Switzerland and Austria usually spend more than us. Plus, really that's a misleading stat. It's like comparing minimum wage in the US to what we pay the kids in china to make all our shit.

 

Best to look at education spending as a percentage of GDP. There we came in 37th for 2011.

 

How you figure "the ROI blows" baffles me. For most of modern civilization education has been considered a privilege. Since mandatory education laws came into effect we have seen the development of most of our modern comforts. For as much time as you spend on CC, you should show a little more respect for the education system. The internet wouldn't exist were it not for the investment made into education.

 

[shaoleung]

... education is expensive here (is it those evil teachers unions or the special education laws, a different method of accounting for those expenses, or something else?)

 

One of the most costly parts of US education are legal fees/costs. Our legal system facilitates (encourages?) lawsuits over just about anything that a parent thinks is wrong. While some things are reasonable, often they are not. Even simple legal issues like the FOIA become huge expenses. I worked in a district which had to spend thousands of dollars on a simple request for email records regarding their student... just because the parent wanted to exercise their right to see the documents.

[akhalteke]

how are our kids supposed to learn when they can't field-strip an m-14 in under 30 seconds before their old enough to bleed?!?

 

Not many still use the M-14 except for DNC and DM stuff. Now being able to field strip an M-16 (or M-4); THAT is something that I can get behind replacing the Pledge in the AM in schools.

 

 

Good post Ivan!

 

How about head space and timing on a M2 machine gun? Maybe a High School level task? What say ye?

[akhalteke]

Want to hear what the truth is? We spend too much on the military, have overworked teachers and kids with shitty parents. It is not teachers' job to teach kids everything; they only need teach their curriculum. Parents need to teach discipline, courtesy and the need to pay attention so they do not end up like Kevbone.

[akhalteke]

...that, and proper gun maintenance intervals.

[pink]

Want to hear what the truth is? We spend too much on the military, have overworked teachers and kids with shitty parents. It is not teachers' job to teach kids everything; they only need teach their curriculum. Parents need to teach discipline, courtesy and the need to pay attention so they do not end up like Kevbone.

 

over-population is a social problem, think of the el cap routes eric would have sent if he knew the value of a cumshot

[glassgowkiss]

Want to hear what the truth is? We spend too much on the military, have overworked teachers and kids with shitty parents. It is not teachers' job to teach kids everything; they only need teach their curriculum. Parents need to teach discipline, courtesy and the need to pay attention so they do not end up like Kevbone.

amen. and we also send people to wars, we can't win, then later we give them shove and say: you are on your own. I was an opponent of going to Iraq, but the shit people who return are going through is just fucked up. I think returning to draft would be the remedy.