Forget that bulk webbing... by Blake Herrington

[jon]

We've got another great article by Blake in the blog about gear you should leave behind and what to use in place of it.

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/blog/2012/02/23/forget-that-bulk-webbing-by-blake-herrington/

 

I've posted this here because I'm sure this is going to generate some great discussion. Feel free to reply in the blog as well.

[Dave7]

A great article. Mostly lessons I learned from carrying to much stuff and never using. Good training I suppose?

[genepires]

agreed with the great article.

 

Not sure if I like the recommendation about just rotating the used rappel cords some to spread out the rope burning damage. (instead of using rappel rings) I mean it makes sense but to recommend something like this (vs. just stating that one needs to place new every time) leaves me a bit nervous about liability. (both legally and morally)

[keenwesh]

agreed with the great article.

 

Not sure if I like the recommendation about just rotating the used rappel cords some to spread out the rope burning damage. (instead of using rappel rings) I mean it makes sense but to recommend something like this (vs. just stating that one needs to place new every time) leaves me a bit nervous about liability. (both legally and morally)

 

This article, while good, is not the law. ultimately it comes down to what you are comfortable with. If just turning the old slings isn't good enough for you, replace them and rap off that. Simple.

 

BTW I almost think there should be a bolted descent off prussik, there is more tat on those raps than anywhere I've been and a handful of 2 bolt rappel anchors would be much less impact.

[JasonG]

Blake brings up some good points. I do think though that on easy alpine objectives (blocky mid fifth class), a cordelette comes in very handy for a couple reasons. One, it is super fast to sling a big block or horn (often too big for a double sling) and bring the second up with minimal fiddling with a gear anchor. Two, this frees up the leader to have the full amount of gear for the next pitch. On these climbs the rack is often meager, and using up gear at the belays can limit the leader on the next pitch (or shorten an upcoming simul block).

 

That said, I could probably ditch the daisy....old habit I guess.

[billcoe]

Good stuff. I think that the major issue I'd have is what Gene brings up. You are potentially looking at being a stupid statistic if you cut away all the old webbing, leave your new one and do a double rope rap right on webbing with differing stretch characteristics in your ropes. People have died doing that before, and undoubtedly will again.

 

Not just a 10mm and a 6mm tied together, but potentially 2 same sized ropes of differing brands. Very very Bad Bad idea. Burn a biner.

[DPS]

I use 7mm perlon cord instead of tublular webbing for rappel anchors. In my mind the round cord weakens less than webbing when ropes are pulled over it. I have no idea if this is true or if any testing has been done, but I figure it can't be any worse. Anybody seen data to support or refute this notion?

[RafalA]

Interesting read, but the tone is a bit too preachy for my taste.

 

Cordellettes - there is a time and place for everything, sometimes they're useful, sometimes not.

 

Rap rings - I have yet to meet a single person in the mountains with a rap ring, you southerners have some odd habits! :-)

 

Daisy Chain - this is a piece of Aid gear, and should be used as such.

 

PAS - to each their own, I find mine incredibly useful especially on "cragging days," not so much in the mountains. Perhaps we have a different definition of cragging.

 

Quicklinks - for the weight and cost of a maillon, I bring one or two every time we head out sport climbing. I'd rather take that than a 'leaver' biner, as I try not to carry - or own - unnecessary gear.

 

Bulk Webbing - wow, again, must be a southern thing. 6 or 7 mil cord will do anything you need it to.

 

Lockers - again, different strokes for different folks. Carry as many as needed for the route...

 

 

[Lisa_D]

Nice article - reminds me that I need to buy a quick link.

[Blake]

Good stuff. I think that the major issue I'd have is what Gene brings up. You are potentially looking at being a stupid statistic if you cut away all the old webbing, leave your new one and do a double rope rap right on webbing with differing stretch characteristics in your ropes. People have died doing that before, and undoubtedly will again.

 

Not just a 10mm and a 6mm tied together, but potentially 2 same sized ropes of differing brands. Very very Bad Bad idea. Burn a biner.

 

Billcoe,

 

Are you saying there are stats or records of folks cutting through webbing with their rappel ropes because the ropes were from different brands or thicknesses? That's a frightening prospect, do you recall any of those instances?

 

I wouldn't suggest cutting away ALL the existing webbing, but would propose leaving the best existing sling then adding one new one as a back-up.

[billcoe]

Billcoe,

 

Are you saying there are stats or records of folks cutting through webbing with their rappel ropes because the ropes were from different brands or thicknesses? That's a frightening prospect, do you recall any of those instances?

 

I wouldn't suggest cutting away ALL the existing webbing, but would propose leaving the best existing sling then adding one new one as a back-up.

 

I can't say about stats or records Blake. It's more like the conventional wisdom. I might have only heard of one personal experience of a failure, and that's been so many years (maybe over 20) I'd want to ask the guy to confirm it: old Oregon climber named Steve Strauch I think told me he cut through the webbing with the rap rope and got lucky.

 

Conventional wisdom like not using a Bowline to tie in with. Maybe the reasons just gets lost. Tieing in with a bowline use to be much more common than using a using a figure 8 to tie in. I can't point you to stats or records of deaths, but I know that has happened for both bowline tie ins and rapping off webbing. That's why those few who do still tie in with a bowline these days use the Yosemite finish or a double bowline that's usually well dressed and invariably seems to have a backup stopper type of knot. Deaths from either of these occurrences seem to be close to non-existent these days as both bowlines and rapping directly off of a single webbing strand are not common. But both are still serious juju.

 

Vid below not totally representative, but back in the day people set this up simulated rapping and the pressure (weight) is much more, so requires less strokes to break the webbing. Naturally, overhangs are worse than lower angle raps, the more weight you put on a rope, the easier it is to melt the webbing. The webbing melts it doesn't cut. I've never heard if doing it in the cold reduces the effect but I imagine it would make a difference. Leaving all that tat and just adding your new piece isn't often a bad idea to increase your safety margin if you don't want to leave a biner.

[video:youtube]

 

regards

[Buckaroo]

Cordelettes are the fastest way to equalize an anchor, and you don't want to be using the rope on full length pitches.

 

Instead of 6mm I use a quad length skinny runner, it's 1/2 the weight and bulk and while not as long as a standard cordelette the knot uses much less length so it works out to the same.

 

cord is better than webbing for raps because the sheath protects the core. You can inspect it and know its ok if the sheath is not burned through, not so with webbing.

 

Edited February 25, 2012 by Buckaroo

[kurthicks]

I think Blake is saying that you should analyze what stuff you are dragging up routes and leave what you don't need or use behind.

 

In my evaluation of what gear to carry and what to leave behind, I find the cordelette to be an indispensable tool for trad routes, alpine, and ice climbs-- for equalizing anchors, building rap anchors or threads, and for rescue purposes.

 

I certainly agree with everything else on the list though. Tailor your equipment selection to the route you are doing, the current conditions, and your abilities.

[G-spotter]

I think the point Blake is making is that when tested during dynamic failure cordelettes actually don't equalize anything. see Will Gadd blog post from a year or two ago about going back to the sliding-X.

[kurthicks]

Agreed, cordelettes aren't ideal for truly equalizing anchors--that's why Luebben developed the Equalette (which is an overly complex tool IMO). Anchors need redundancy in most cases and a cordelette is a good tool for achieving that goal if the pieces are spread out vertically or horizontally.

 

It doesn't matter what materials you choose to use to tie/equalize your pieces to form an anchor as long as the gear is good. If the gear isn't good, then all the equalization trickery in the world isn't going to really improve your situation.

[denalidevo]

Agreed, cordelettes aren't ideal for truly equalizing anchors--that's why Luebben developed the Equalette (which is an overly complex tool IMO).

 

Really? I use the equalette quite often, don't find too complicated. It takes some practice to master (like any new anchor building technique), but after that it comes together pretty quick. Use the sliding X a lot too. I don't tie old-fashioned cordelettes much at all these days...

[CaleHoopes]

I like to climb with nothing but trickery.

[DPS]

cord is better than webbing for raps because the sheath protects the core. You can inspect it and know its ok if the sheath is not burned through, not so with webbing.

That was sort of my thinking too.

[genepires]

I have heard that webbing is less likely to cut over edges, like the edges that may be present around horns or pinched blocks common to alpine rappel stations.

 

[mattp]

It doesn't matter what materials you choose to use to tie/equalize your pieces to form an anchor as long as the gear is good. If the gear isn't good, then all the equalization trickery in the world isn't going to really improve your situation.

 

Yup. That is why I think the modern focus on SRENE anchor systems is a little over the top and encourages a waste of time at most belays. The concepts are good but most of the time I just tie myself to a bomber anchor and make sure there are one or preferably two bomber and independent anchors backing it up - usually using my runners or another length of the climbing rope to tie them together.

[G-spotter]

Talking about bomber anchors is fine for cragging yet the reality is in many alpine areas you might be making do with anchors that are distinctly less than perfect.

[keenwesh]

alpine cock ring

 

http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf

[mattp]

Talking about bomber anchors is fine for cragging yet the reality is in many alpine areas you might be making do with anchors that are distinctly less than perfect.

 

True that, but when Alpine climbing I generally do not spend a lot of time preparing technically correct SRENE anchors either. There are certainly situations where advanced anchor theory and dedicated equipment will be helpful in this regard, for sure, but most of the time it comes down to belay-is-secure-so-its-ok or belay-is-crap-so-I-sure-hope-my-buddy-doesn't-fall.

[G-spotter]

most of the time it comes down to belay-is-secure-so-its-ok or belay-is-crap-so-I-sure-hope-my-buddy-doesn't-fall.

 

You can make a shitty belay from good gear, and you can make the best out of bad gear through careful equalization. the point is that a cordelette doesn't do a successful job of equalizing forces on bad gear. To say "I only belay on bomber gear, so I forget about equalization" and to say "The gear is bad so you better not fall" are both mistakes. Undoubtedly there are places where even the best equalization in the world won't help but there are also places where it can make a life and death difference. Blake is arguing that since cordelettes don't work it's better to use the rope and not carry cordelettes. I've been in enough situations where I didn't have enough rope left to use in the alpine that I find a PAS and a couple of long slings are very useful. Plus then I can leave the long slings behind for rap anchors on the way down.

 

Or maybe I should switch to 80m ropes so I'll have more of the rope left to belay with after I climb a 70m pitch and find crap gear at the belay ledge I was aiming for.

[mattp]

I don't disagree, Dru. There are times when more exotic anchor building skills or specialized equipment will keep you safer. Climbers should learn about this. And oh: I actually like the cordelette and always carry long slings. Carry on.