Discovery pass ticket.

[num1mc]

.There was no signage where I parked, either. Next time.

Given that we now have satellite images of Skamania County's property boundary's and Wa St Parks and WaDOT property, it should be easy to discern ownership of the lot. Then

1) Did SP own the lot?

2) Was the lot signed?

3) Would a reasonable person believe that SP owned the land

[Water]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

[denalidave]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

Suck it up and pay the man!

[Water]

excuse me? I'm not asking because I'm trying to figure out for myself if I can weasel on the parking-I've no need or interest to even go near anywhere that requires this pass. I'm genuinely curious to know if this made it to court or was thrown out by the court, etc.

[ivan]

you've no need to climb at beacon?!?

 

the year pass works out to 3$/month - shit, i don't even give npr that much patronage

[dhrmabum]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

 

Ah, so this thread has been revived. . I've been meaning to write the followup, so here goes. .

 

I did attend my court date in Stevenson, awhile back, and Ranger. . Vicky?, wasn't in attendance, though she'd sent along her affadavit. I presume she'd sent them for my fellow ticketees as well.

 

Anyway, presented my case to the judge, complete with my photos of the signage, where my car was parked, etc. He commented, contemplated, and. . . rather than a quick dismissal such as all the other offenders received, I was told he'd need a little more time to check it out, look into the statutes, etc, etc. .

 

I left feeling pretty good, though not quite as good as the others-about 3-4-who'd had their Discovery offenses dismissed. Still, the judge did seem understanding of my defense, and said I would receive an answer, after he looked into it a bit further, in about a week.

Sure enough, about a week or so later, I received a very brief letter from the good judge, proclaiming "ticket dismissed!"

 

Certainly was a bit of a hassle to fight, miss a day of work to drive to Stevenson at the appointed time, etc, but, very glad my defense prevailed.

 

For anyone who doesn't want to pay $10 for a day's pass, or buy an annual(I wouldn't mind, really, but I couldn't fork over $10 nor $30 on that particular day, which was why I parked down the highway, and, I really only park in the area to hike up Hamilton; just about the only place I go requiring said pass), I suggest parking west of Beacon, and even pulling off the highway(I didn't, though I was in a pullout), and park on Little Road, where, like my pullout, there is no signage. This is certainly not legal advice; the judge offered no explanation as to why the ticket was dismissed, but I think that area is outside of the park.

A piece of my defense was that signs essentially were written stating that one must have a pass to park in the recreation area; I stated that I walked into the recreation area, and there was nothing on any of the signs stating that my actions were illegal.

So, despite the hassle of fighting it, and despite Ranger Vicky's protestations about "all the good the money goes toward," I feel good that, seemingly, at least, on principle, I won.

 

Edited June 20, 2012 by dhrmabum

[Devin27]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

 

So, despite the hassle of fighting it, and despite Ranger Vicky's protestations about "all the good the money goes toward,"

 

And by that, you mean the states general fund. None of that money goes back into the parks. The only thing that has changed from before the passes to now is the parking tickets.

[dhrmabum]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

 

So, despite the hassle of fighting it, and despite Ranger Vicky's protestations about "all the good the money goes toward,"

 

And by that, you mean the states general fund. None of that money goes back into the parks. The only thing that has changed from before the passes to now is the parking tickets.

 

I think that's about right, though I certainly don't profess to know for sure. What Ms. Ranger asserted was that the monies went for trail maintenance, bathroom maintenance, etc, ie, back into the parks. . Funny how, at the time, I saw that the bathroom at Hamilton was locked shut, and the gate to the Hamilton parking area was also locked, meaning one had to park at Beacon and walk up the road to the empty parking area of Hamilton. .

[denalidave]

Score one for the little man!

 

[JosephH]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

So, despite the hassle of fighting it, and despite Ranger Vicky's protestations about "all the good the money goes toward,"

And by that, you mean the states general fund. None of that money goes back into the parks. The only thing that has changed from before the passes to now is the parking tickets.

Hey, none of it goes to the WA General Fund. 84% of the Discover Pass receipts goes directly to the WSP and is the only funding WSP now gets - they receive no general funds. Every one of you who are so miserably cheap you have to try and scam around it instead of dropping the staggering sum of $30 a year for WA parks should just stay out of them.

[dhrmabum]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

So, despite the hassle of fighting it, and despite Ranger Vicky's protestations about "all the good the money goes toward,"

And by that, you mean the states general fund. None of that money goes back into the parks. The only thing that has changed from before the passes to now is the parking tickets.

Hey, none of it goes to the WA General Fund. 84% of the Discover Pass receipts goes directly to the WSP and is the only funding WSP now gets - they receive no general funds. Every one of you who are so miserably cheap you have to try and scam around it instead of dropping the staggering sum of $30 a year for WA parks should just stay out of them.

 

Ouch!

[KirkW]

Hey, none of it goes to the WA General Fund. 84% of the Discover Pass receipts goes directly to the WSP and is the only funding WSP now gets - they receive no general funds. Every one of you who are so miserably cheap you have to try and scam around it instead of dropping the staggering sum of $30 a year for WA parks should just stay out of them.

 

A quick google check didn't come up with the source for that number you just quoted Joe. You got a source for that other than secret information you got from the ranger at Beacon?

 

Also, ever since My last trip to the Gorge I've heeded your advice and just stayed the hell out of WA state parks. I've stayed the hell out of WA actually. Not only did they not get my $30 for this bullshit pass they've missed out on all the other tourist dollars I would have spent there, as well as the dollars from several other people that I know of that think this whole thing is bullshit and just another way to rape the public.

 

Since so many people feel this way Joe I suppose you would be in favor of just closing the WA parks down to anyone who doesn't have extra income to help pay for locked shitters and massive parking lots? How much money do you have to make to be able to experience public lands? I don't personally have as big of a problem with paying for access to public lands as I do with the way this program was developed and launched on the public with little warning and in a way that was obviously intended to gather as many dollars from penalties as it was from the actual pass.

 

We were planning a trip to WA this summer with some friends but the "pass" situation in your state convinced the WA natives to come down here to OR and check out some of our lesser traveled areas instead of tossing their paychecks into the money grinder that is the WA state parks system.

 

And, the Ranger's actions in this situation are indefensible and I'm glad to hear the judge threw this trash out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RaisedByPikas]

So how did this resolve dhrmabum?? curious to hear..

So, despite the hassle of fighting it, and despite Ranger Vicky's protestations about "all the good the money goes toward,"

And by that, you mean the states general fund. None of that money goes back into the parks. The only thing that has changed from before the passes to now is the parking tickets.

Hey, none of it goes to the WA General Fund. 84% of the Discover Pass receipts goes directly to the WSP and is the only funding WSP now gets - they receive no general funds. Every one of you who are so miserably cheap you have to try and scam around it instead of dropping the staggering sum of $30 a year for WA parks should just stay out of them.

 

Where do discover pass fines go to?

[dhrmabum]

Where do discover pass fines go to?

 

Now there's a mighty fine question. . I don't know the answer. . Prolly lumped into the General Fund?

Fine is $99.00, kindly reduced to $59, if one buys a pass within 15 days of ticket and provides proof of purchase to the court. . .

Sounds like the purchase price has gone up a little, now that everyone is getting a slice:

 

Q. How much does the Discover Pass cost?

A. An annual Discover Pass purchased from a recreational license dealer, by phone or online costs $35, which includes the $30 base fee, a 10 percent transaction fee and a $2 dealer fee. A one-day Discover Pass costs $11.50, which includes the $10 base fee, a 10 percent transaction fee and a 50-cent dealer fee. The annual pass is good for one year.

 

Who knows? Next year price might be $40 per yr, and $15 for the day. . .

Edited June 21, 2012 by dhrmabum

[rob]

Does it matter if the money goes into the general fund? Money is money. The parks department has a budget from somewhere. Even if the discovery pass goes straight into the general fund, who cares? The parks department gets paid from somewhere and if the state's income decreased (fewer discovery passes sold, for instance) then maybe they'd have to decrease the park's department funding. So even if they're not directly connected, they're still symbiotic.

 

I can't believe you guys are really arguing about this, who cares where the money goes? I doubt that the discovery pass would be capable of paying for the entire parks department budget anyway, so does it matter if they lessen their fiduciary burden on the state by providing an income source that can be used for other projects that might be underfunded -- in exchange for continued budget consideration?

 

Or do you think everything should be strictly use-tax supported? I.E. no general fund, everything is supported by it's own fines/permit fees/etc. ? If that were the case I doubt the parks department would have any money at all. So I don't know why you guys are complaining, you can't get something for nothing.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Does it matter if the money goes into the general fund?

 

Yes, it does.

 

who cares where the money goes?

 

Many do, including me

 

Cutting state park funding and instituting the Discover Pass is just a scam - they do it because they can. I pay sales tax, and I expect that it goes toward funding parks. I don't want taxes and fees scattered all over the place.

[dougd]

Not only did they not get my $30 for this bullshit pass they've missed out on all the other tourist dollars I would have spent there, as well as the dollars from several other people that I know of that think this whole thing is bullshit and just another way to rape the public.

 

This Washingtonian thinks our state will survive just fine without your "tourist dollars", your "facilities inspections", and, your incessant complaining.

 

I propose a "whiney baby" forum be added to cc.com. It would be a catch all for this type of "discussion". It shouldn't be in a climbing forum IMO... I'll nominate KirkW to be the moderator of this new forum.

 

Mods? Please?

 

d

 

 

[dhrmabum]

Not only did they not get my $30 for this bullshit pass they've missed out on all the other tourist dollars I would have spent there, as well as the dollars from several other people that I know of that think this whole thing is bullshit and just another way to rape the public.

 

This Washingtonian thinks our state will survive just fine without your "tourist dollars", your "facilities inspections", and, your incessant complaining.

 

I propose a "whiney baby" forum be added to cc.com. It would be a catch all for this type of "discussion". It shouldn't be in a climbing forum IMO... I'll nominate KirkW to be the moderator of this new forum.

 

Mods? Please?

 

d

 

 

I don't think, in this case, that there was much,if any, whining coming from KirkW. Nor do find the TR he linked whiny at all; rather, I thought it showed with ridiculous irony how f-ed up this whole fee situation is. . ie, a new shitter, closed, w/glorious signage all over, along w/ piles of shit some dog owner didn't feel like carting back in their car. Surprised someone didn't take a shit at the foot of the closed restroom door. .

And, he brought up some good points: if people stop going to such and such a trailhead(s), due to shelling out the monies, the immediate area can suffer a decrease in $$.

My cousin still goes to Hamilton, and he says he's noticed a visible difference in the number of cars now parked in the lot. This may or may not make a too much of a difference on the local economy, but I can't help think that the little stores, gas stations, etc, in any given area, now would lose a few $ w/ the loss of people going to any given trailhead. .

 

 

[Stefan]

This Washingtonian thinks our state will survive just fine without your "tourist dollars"...

 

We will do fine--not just as well. I agree the Discovery Pass thing has put a crimp on potential tourist dollars.

 

Some poeple don't go to trailheads becuase of the NW pass for the same reason.

[JosephH]

Does it matter if the money goes into the general fund? Money is money. The parks department has a budget from somewhere. Even if the discovery pass goes straight into the general fund, who cares? The parks department gets paid from somewhere and if the state's income decreased (fewer discovery passes sold, for instance) then maybe they'd have to decrease the park's department funding. So even if they're not directly connected, they're still symbiotic.

Again, WSP gets 84%, DNR 8%, WDFW 8% - The WSP gets ZERO general fund dollars now and lives 100% of their budget off the Discovery Pass receipts. Anyone who can't find it on google needs to brush up on their google skills.

 

I can't believe you guys are really arguing about this, who cares where the money goes? I doubt that the discovery pass would be capable of paying for the entire parks department budget anyway, so does it matter if they lessen their fiduciary burden on the state by providing an income source that can be used for other projects that might be underfunded -- in exchange for continued budget consideration?

The Discovery Pass, fines and all, isn't bringing in as much as forecast. That means the WSP, which when it was operating on general funds was already hugely under funded for their daily responsibilities, is now way hurting and have slashed HQ, rangers and staff and will likely have to start closing parks if this remains the funding scheme into the future. So not only are all the parks now under-funded and understaffed, the rangers have to burn a ridiculous amount of time solely on the Discovery Pass hassle which puts them even further in the hole with their normal work. It isn't a sustainable situation in any way.

 

Or do you think everything should be strictly use-tax supported? I.E. no general fund, everything is supported by it's own fines/permit fees/etc. ? If that were the case I doubt the parks department would have any money at all. So I don't know why you guys are complaining, you can't get something for nothing.

Exactly. That is the grand experiment underway with the Discovery Pass and the WSP - zero general funds and 100% supported by user fees. Anyone trying to ditch the fees might as well just be pissing on your state park systems which was already severely stressed and under-the-gun before they went down this road.

 

Folks should consider skipping ten lattes a year and making a difference in a situation where every Discovery Pass counts.

 

P.S. I'll ask about where the fines go, but you can pretty much bet they flow back into the Discovery Pass stream or the rangers wouldn't bother, but it still isn't worth the time and distraction from their real work that's backing up in every park.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Exactly. That is the grand experiment underway with the Discovery Pass and the WSP - zero general funds and 100% supported by user fees.

 

I call BS.

 

If WA state raised sales tax by enough to cover the deficit in funding for WSPs, guess what would happen within a year? Suddenly, again, there would not be enough funds for the WSPs.

 

It's about setting priorities for funding and be responsibile with budgets. THAT is what pisses off a lot of us, not the $30 itself.

 

[billcoe]

In addition to wasting time on the pass itself as Josephs says above, the thing is 100% regressive. Bill Gates pays the same as a poor widow with 4 kids. Someone may be able to pass on buying 11 morning lattes and afford the pass instead, but should a person who cannot afford a latte pass on buying a pair of shoes for a child so that they can afford the pass, or should she just buy the shoes and stay the hell out of the rich mans forest? Those people do exist, even if you people never see them in YOUR world. Furthermore, everytime a new fee or tax is added, a new little bureaucracy sprouts up to manage it. It's wasteful and wrong.

[rob]

should a person who cannot afford a latte pass on buying a pair of shoes for a child so that they can afford the pass, or should she just buy the shoes and stay the hell out of the rich mans forest? Those people do exist, even if you people never see them in YOUR world.

 

lol

[dhrmabum]

Very good, Billcoe. Before long, it will become the "rich man's forest," . . .

Wasn't it George W's intention to privatize forest recreation??

[JosephH]

Exactly. That is the grand experiment underway with the Discovery Pass and the WSP - zero general funds and 100% supported by user fees.

I call BS.

 

If WA state raised sales tax by enough to cover the deficit in funding for WSPs, guess what would happen within a year? Suddenly, again, there would not be enough funds for the WSPs.

 

It's about setting priorities for funding and be responsibile with budgets. THAT is what pisses off a lot of us, not the $30 itself.

Absolutely none of which is in the WSP's control - their budget was way short of required operating and maintenance expenses ten years ago and has was been slashed several times before this latest fiasco. In the matter of priorities, the stand out one is whether Washingtonians want parks or not because the system has been bled to death over the past decade with no end in site. Staffing has been cut across the board twice now and while they have worked there asses off to stave off park closures, they have no further ability to do so. In the next round of cuts, parks will be closing.