Discovery pass ticket.

[JasonG]

The head ranger has an opinion/interpretation of the law like the rest of us. When it comes to gray areas, the "truth" lies in the court's interpretation of the legislation.

 

Of course, if the pullout is state park land, which it appears to be, then the legislation is pretty clear that you need a pass.

Edited December 24, 2011 by JasonG

[Crillz]

I just found out. FYI. The Discovery Pass is not a parking pass, it is a Vehicle Access Pass, so if you access the park by driving a vehicle, they can charge you and they can ticket you. Thats the way it is written, like it or not.

and no offense, but disregarding what a Ranger tells you is not the best course of action for yourself or climbers as a user group in general.

 

Wrong.

 

It is written "a discover pass is required for any motor vehicle to park or operate on any recreation site or lands..."

 

Fight that shit!

 

Not wrong. I spoke with the Head Ranger and that is exactly what he told me. Might want to look at the fine print.

 

What I quoted from the law is the fine print. I do suppose though, since the guy with the ticket book has a gun, he is correct at the time. Cheers. Merry Crillzmas.

 

Edit: If the dude parked in the mapped area, he's fuct. Best pay the $59 and not have to walk as far for a year.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Crillz

[Kimmo]

 

Contest the ticket.

 

And MAKE SURE you subpoena the woman who wrote the ticket. You'll want to question her, thereby letting the court know that she didn't know the answer to your questions at the time of the citation (plus, the state will dismiss if she fails to appear).

 

I have a feeling any judge would be quite sympathetic to your case (as long as your court-room demeanor is good).

 

And, some have said that the parcel maps indicate park ownership of your chosen parking spot: is there a park entrance sign 1/4 mile from your parking area? Any other signs indicating park ownership ANYWHERE else? Again, not sure if the Park Service has legal obligations to show the public exactly where the boundary lines are, but having a park entrance sign seems a pretty strong indication for the public to base its decision on Discovery Pass compliance. I'm sure there's legal language regarding this kind of thing (and probably strong court sympathy).

 

Force the Park Service to defend what i believe to be an entirely unscrupulous double-taxation.

[mtn_mouse]

Q. Do I need a Discover Pass if I access state recreation lands by foot, horse, bicycle, boat, skateboard, etc.?

A. No. The Discover Pass is a motor vehicle permit and is only required for street-legal motor vehicles to access state-managed recreation lands. It is not required for access using other forms of transportation, such as bicycles, boats, horses or on foot. However, if motor vehicles are used to transport or tow boats, bicycles, horses, etc., the motor vehicle must display the pass. Boaters will still need to pay any moorage and boat pumping fees.

 

http://discoverpass.wa.gov/faq/

[Layback]

Fight it and please let us know what happens. I will never buy one. I'd rather spend a day in court than pay for access to that which is legally mine.

 

Contest the ticket.

 

And MAKE SURE you subpoena the woman who wrote the ticket. You'll want to question her, thereby letting the court know that she didn't know the answer to your questions at the time of the citation (plus, the state will dismiss if she fails to appear).

 

Great advice!

[dhrmabum]

Thanks one and all for your insights and thoughts on this matter.

If there is now a sign at the pullout I parked in, west of B. rock, right before Little Road, then that sign is a new one; it wasn't there when I parked.

I will fight it; I took pics of the signs saying one must have a Discovery Pass to park within the Recreational area. I was outside of the boundaries at the time, at least I think so. . Depending on how one interprets those maps. .

Quote:

A discover pass is required for any

7 motor vehicle to park or operate on any recreation site or lands

 

What if your friend is driving out to Hood River or somewhere, drops you off at the gate to Hamilton Mt. or, drops you so you can climb with some friends, then picks you up in a couple of hours. Does one still need to buy a pass and carry it on your person? ?

 

Ps. Little side note, but definitely part of the whole, " what does our pass pay for discussion," Ms. Ranger gave me a little lecture, asking me if I knew that said pass pays for "restroom upkeep, trail maintenance, etc?" After walking up passed the locked road gate leading up to Hamilton Mt- she said they would reopen the gate "in March or so," I came upon the restroom up there, and it was locked. No portapotty either. And, on the restroom door, was a nice little written explanation of how great the Discovery Pass is, and what it pays for. . I ripped it off the door and threw it in their trashcan.

Edited December 24, 2011 by dhrmabum

[JasonG]

Good point about signage....even if it is in the park, they need to sign it.

 

Good luck, and please post back with the outcome.

[stevetimetravlr]

He blatantly ignored a Ranger who stopped him and told him he needed a pass, and came back to find a ticket, and he is going to fight it? Thats a good one. You might want to think that one thru. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge actually tacks on an extra fine for disregard and failure to obey a Law enforcement officer, and based on the above statement, sounds like they can nail you for vandalism as well.

[AlpineK]

Failure to obey a lawful command will get you in trouble or more trouble for sure. If the command isn't based on a written law I don't believe you face the same risks or penalties. The job of the ranger, cop, or whatever official is to know the rules they enforce and how to apply them.

 

Getting pulled over for 5-miles over the speed limit vs 15+ miles over results in different tickets from a police officer. If the officer gives you a ticket for 15+ or reckless driving and you can prove you were exceeding the speed limit by 5 over you don't suffer the same penalties. Yes you get a ticket, but it ain't the same.

[dhrmabum]

Ps. Little side note, but definitely part of the whole, " what does our pass pay for discussion," Ms. Ranger gave me a little lecture, asking me if I knew that said pass pays for "restroom upkeep, trail maintenance, etc?" After walking up passed the locked road gate leading up to Hamilton Mt- she said they would reopen the gate "in March or so," I came upon the restroom up there, and it was locked. No portapotty either. And, on the restroom door, was a nice little written explanation of how great the Discovery Pass is, and what it pays for. . I ripped it off the door and threw it in their trashcan.

He blatantly ignored a Ranger who stopped him and told him he needed a pass, and came back to find a ticket, and he is going to fight it? Thats a good one. You might want to think that one thru. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge actually tacks on an extra fine for disregard and failure to obey a Law enforcement officer, and based on the above statement, sounds like they can nail you for vandalism as well.

 

Yeah, I am going to fight it, for I believe that I was in the right, parking outside of the Recreation area at the time, and that she had no legal right to ticket me. And, yeah, I'll fess up to my serious act of vandalism/monkey-wrenching as well. .

[KirkW]

He blatantly ignored a Ranger who stopped him and told him he needed a pass, and came back to find a ticket, and he is going to fight it? Thats a good one. You might want to think that one thru. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge actually tacks on an extra fine for disregard and failure to obey a Law enforcement officer, and based on the above statement, sounds like they can nail you for vandalism as well.

 

What a nice little foot soldier for the man you are Steve! You're correctthough, as a good Amurikan one should stop and present the valid paperwork to anyone wearing a uniform and giving you orders. Just like you're supposed to do in any fascist nation. Do whatever you're told and simply move along after paying you're fee.

 

Total bullshit. Fight it. The Western Slope No Fee Coalition might be interested in hearing about this as well. Kitty Benzar has posted on these boards before and although I doubt they can offer assistance I'm sure they will have some advice. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

If people don't stand up to this obvious bullshit and fight it then in the end we are allowing an individual ranger that was hired to do nothing more than patrol a parking lot to make up the laws as they go along.

 

You had to hike past a locked gate for fucks sake and couldn't even shoot a deuce cause the shitter was locked. What exactly are they charging you for?

 

 

 

[stevetimetravlr]

Actually not working for the man, but for you, if you're a climber. We as climbers along with the Beacon Rock Climbing Association, are trying to be a positive presence, and being dicks to the Rangers won't get us very far now will it? The Rangers didn't write the rules or regs, they are just there to enforce them, and as climbers we will be much further ahead with the Park administration as a positive presence. If you have a problem with the Discovery Pass, the person to take it up with would be the people in Olympia who came up with the idea and implemented it, not the every day folks who work the park and are doing their job.

[num1mc]

If the officer gives you a ticket for 15+ or reckless driving and you can prove you were exceeding the speed limit by 5 over you don't suffer the same penalties. Yes you get a ticket, but it ain't the same.

 

If you get a ticket for 15mph over the speed limit, but prove in court you were only going 5mph over the speed limit, you are innocent. Because the ticket was for 15mph over. Traffic court isn't like criminal court, where you can be found guilty of manslaughter when they were trying to get you for Murder 1. In traffic court, it's all or nothing, zero sum.

[Kimmo]

The Rangers didn't write the rules or regs, they are just there to enforce them, and as climbers we will be much further ahead with the Park administration as a positive presence.

 

They didn't write the rules, but they need to know what the rules are when enforcing them.

 

The ranger in question admitted to not knowing the rules, but in what seems to be an antagonistic power play, chose to issue a citation anyway.

 

This entire issue has nothing to do with "doing what the ranger told you to do", as you seem to indicate baa baa, but with Discovery Pass compliance.

 

It's pretty clear that rangers (now unfairly put in a position of having to issue citations in order to finance a limited budget which ensures their own employment, among other things) will continue to issue these citations based upon their own interpretation of the rules, UNTIL CHALLENGED.

 

That's why it's very important to challenge this citation with a strongly developed argument based on a firm understanding of the written rules of the Discovery Pass, void of emotive hyperbole.

[stevetimetravlr]

That's why it's very important to challenge this citation with a strongly developed argument based on a firm understanding of the written rules of the Discovery Pass, void of emotive hyperbole.

 

He parked on a pullout within the State Park and within eyesight of the Ranger Station and a Ranger, who told him he needed a pass to park there. He ignored said Ranger, was ticketed, and his grounds for dismissal of the ticket are what......she couldn't answer all his questions to his satisfaction?

[Kimmo]

He parked on a pullout within the State Park and within eyesight of the Ranger Station and a Ranger, who told him he needed a pass to park there. He ignored said Ranger, was ticketed, and his grounds for dismissal of the ticket are what......she couldn't answer all his questions to his satisfaction?

 

it seems she couldn't answer ANY of his questions as to why it was illegal to park there. Did they really say to him he was within State Park land?

 

If they did, I would reconsider my previous advice.

[Rad]

He blatantly ignored a Ranger who stopped him and told him he needed a pass, and came back to find a ticket, and he is going to fight it? Thats a good one. You might want to think that one thru. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge actually tacks on an extra fine for disregard and failure to obey a Law enforcement officer, and based on the above statement, sounds like they can nail you for vandalism as well.

 

I know someone (on this board) who had a disagreement with a ranger in the field regarding a lack of a back country permit, was issued a citation, contested it in court, and was handed an additional fine when the judge felt he not only committed the offense but did so willfully and indicated he would gladly do it again. Attitude in court is important.

 

Being humble and earnest is more likely to yield a good outcome than being ornery. The angle to pitch, IMHO, is that there was no sign indicating the parking area in question was subject to the permit requirement and a reasonable person might think it was ok to park there. If you subpoena the ranger you may be headed down the path of my friend mentioned above. Good luck!

 

If our states, cities, and counties could fund parks we wouldn't have this dumb pass in the first place.

[num1mc]

I know someone (on this board) who had a disagreement with a ranger in the field regarding a lack of a back country permit, was issued a citation, contested it in court, and was handed an additional fine when the judge felt he not only committed the offense but did so willfully and indicated he would gladly do it again.

That was undoubtedly in Federal Court. County District Court, where our OP is headed, probably does not have that ability. They are there to try the defendant on the stated charges.

 

.....Attitude in court is important.

 

Being humble and earnest is more likely to yield a good outcome than being ornery. The angle to pitch, IMHO, is that there was no sign indicating the parking area in question was subject to the permit requirement and a reasonable person might think it was ok to park there.

 

Yes, that is the key. If I understand correctly the OP was under the impression that his chosen parking spot was either off SP land, or a pass was not required because the area was not posted. The Ranger told him that a pass was required "to enter the park". This is not correct, and the Ranger did nothing to dispel the impression that a pass was required to park at that location, which was inside the park.

....... If you subpoena the ranger you may be headed down the path of my friend mentioned above

I actually doubt that the Ranger could be required to appear in court. They can probably supply a written statement in lieu of a court appearance

[ivan]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

[num1mc]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

If that's the case, his defence will surely be sparse

[dhrmabum]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

 

Pullout is to the west, west of the Ranger station and Beacon Rock, right near Little Rd. It had no signs when I parked there.

Btw, sent my paperwork, ticket, my written explanation as to why I was contesting it, etc. into the Court yesterday. Now, wait and see.

And, agreed, attitude is everything. Should I make it into court, mine will be humble yet honest.

Edited December 28, 2011 by dhrmabum

[ivan]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

 

Pullout is to the west, west of the Ranger station and Beacon Rock, right near Little Rd. It had no signs when I parked there.

Btw, sent my paperwork, ticket, my written explanation as to why I was contesting it, etc. into the Court yesterday. Now, wait and see.

And, agreed, attitude is everything. Should I make it into court, mine will be humble yet honest.

i see said the blind man to the boy as he handed him the axe and saw

 

good luck.

 

yeah, shit, don't people live up that road?

[dhrmabum]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

 

Pullout is to the west, west of the Ranger station and Beacon Rock, right near Little Rd. It had no signs when I parked there.

Btw, sent my paperwork, ticket, my written explanation as to why I was contesting it, etc. into the Court yesterday. Now, wait and see.

And, agreed, attitude is everything. Should I make it into court, mine will be humble yet honest.

i see said the blind man to the boy as he handed him the axe and saw

 

good luck.

 

yeah, shit, don't people live up that road?

 

Yep.

[denalidave]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

 

Pullout is to the west, west of the Ranger station and Beacon Rock, right near Little Rd. It had no signs when I parked there.

If you take a right on Little Rd, there is a "pullout" that is off Hwy 14 and out of site of the Rangers. I've left a car overnight there and never got a ticket. No Discovery Pass signage whatsoever.

[dhrmabum]

that pullout IS marked as needing a pass too, at least if it's the first one to the east after the main lot w/ the bathroom

 

Pullout is to the west, west of the Ranger station and Beacon Rock, right near Little Rd. It had no signs when I parked there.

If you take a right on Little Rd, there is a "pullout" that is off Hwy 14 and out of site of the Rangers. I've left a car overnight there and never got a ticket. No Discovery Pass signage whatsoever.

 

Yeah, thanks Dave. Thought of that afterwards. . Coulda, Shoula, Woulda. .There was no signage where I parked, either. Next time.

Edited December 29, 2011 by dhrmabum