Hey "I'm a Mormon" ad campaign...

[billcoe]

Haven't seen the ads you discuss. Mormons are good folks. Not just because they let everyone climb on their land in lower Cottonwood canyon too. Historic stuff, they quarried for the Tabernacle in there, and you can feel the history when you are there.

 

Good stuff.

[denalidave]

I think when the number of molested children starts to number in the hundreds of thousands, "isolated" doesn't quite cut it anymore....

 

If the Catholic church had an ounce of decency, it would disband in shame.

That doesn't sound very profitable though. Er, non-profitable...

[layton]

"mother & father got down & sat on a bench!"

[denalidave]

How bout them Mo's? I heard Joseph Smith ran like 500 miles with a ton of gold bricks in his pockets. Or maybe it was he ran a ton of bricks with like 500 miles in his pocket? Hmmm. Either way, he is the CHOSEN ONE!

 

It used to be that some people were "cursed" with "black" skin and thus unable to obtain the priesthood. I think it was in the mid 1980s when the current Momo-Pope (High Priest?) had a "revelation" that now allows colored folks to obtain such a god chosen position. Fuk'n religion.

 

Oh, don't forget the JW's... Push enough magazines and you too might be one of lucky 140,000 make it through the pearly gates.

[denalidave]

How bout them Mo's? I heard Joseph Smith ran like 500 miles with a ton of gold bricks in his pockets. Or maybe it was he ran a ton of bricks with like 500 miles in his pocket? Hmmm. Either way, he is the CHOSEN ONE!

 

It used to be that some people were "cursed" with "black" skin and thus unable to obtain the priesthood. I think it was in the mid 1980s when the current Momo-Pope (High Priest?) had a "revelation" that now allows colored folks to obtain such a god chosen position. Fuk'n religion.

 

Oh, don't forget the JW's... Push enough magazines and you too might be one of lucky 140,000 make it through the pearly gates. Can't they just leave me the fawk alone already???

[denalidave]

"mother & father got down & sat on a bench!"

Someday, you can also have your own solar system, planets and be a god. It's true, I read it in the Book-o-Momo.

 

Now, don't forget Scientology. I'd do it but there is NO WAY I could ever possibly afford the highest level of "enlightenment". Not on my salary.

[tvashtarkatena]

Can o sand worms, that one.

 

I don't believe any religion should tax deductible (seems like a violation of the 1st amendment, as the state must invariably choose who is a legitimate religion and who is not). . .

 

While I agree with you one hundred percent on this, I gotta smirk when I see you supporting your premises with citations from the same "tired, dusty old document" that you openly mock when it's contents prove ideologically inconvenient.

 

No clue what your on about here...I'd guess it's yer brain not workin' right again, but that's coo!

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh, the Mormons are SUPER nice...until your a gay person trying to get hitched in CA. Then...not so nice.

 

Hence, all these fucking billboards.

 

Oh well, beats the "Did you know I've got fingernails at 32 weeks?" bullshit.

[Fairweather]

Can o sand worms, that one.

 

I don't believe any religion should tax deductible (seems like a violation of the 1st amendment, as the state must invariably choose who is a legitimate religion and who is not). . .

 

While I agree with you one hundred percent on this, I gotta smirk when I see you supporting your premises with citations from the same "tired, dusty old document" that you openly mock when it's contents prove ideologically inconvenient.

 

No clue what your on about here...I'd guess it's yer brain not workin' right again, but that's coo!

 

Think real hard. (Difficult for you, I know.) It may become easier once the smoke clears.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Can o sand worms, that one.

 

I don't believe any religion should tax deductible (seems like a violation of the 1st amendment, as the state must invariably choose who is a legitimate religion and who is not). . .

 

While I agree with you one hundred percent on this, I gotta smirk when I see you supporting your premises with citations from the same "tired, dusty old document" that you openly mock when it's contents prove ideologically inconvenient.

 

No clue what your on about here...I'd guess it's yer brain not workin' right again, but that's coo!

 

Think real hard. (Difficult for you, I know.) It may become easier once the smoke clears.

 

He knows exactly what you're referring to. He just doesn't like get caught in one of his many inconsistencies.

[tvashtarkatena]

You two have fun together, now!

[olyclimber]

Haven't seen the ads you discuss. Mormons are good folks. Not just because they let everyone climb on their land in lower Cottonwood canyon too. Historic stuff, they quarried for the Tabernacle in there, and you can feel the history when you are there.

 

Good stuff.

 

yeah. the mormons OWN that shit. can you feel the history of the Mormons???

like yesterday.

[ivan]

 

Think real hard. (Difficult for you, I know.) It may become easier once the smoke clears.

smoke's cleared round here, and i still don't get it - accusing a aclu-type of not giving a shit about the constitution seems alot like saying everyone in the audubon society hates big bird

 

if the gov won't tax the property of a catholic church, then it should allow me the same right when i proclaim myself high-priest of my own little fantasy faith

[bstach]

I think the underwear is "Sacred", not secret.

[AlpineK]

The underwear ain't secrete. I find it amusing that they go through genealogy records and find close or distant family members. If they find you, and there is no record of you being a Mormon or attending a Mormon church, they can retroactively make you one.

 

One day your dead and cruising around the boring standard heaven, but the next thing you know you've entered Mormon heaven and can't get out.

[bstach]

My underwear is secret too. Except to those in the club. My fitness club, that is.

[layton]

"cheese and rice!"

[Pete_H]

The underwear ain't secrete. I find it amusing that they go through genealogy records and find close or distant family members. If they find you, and there is no record of you being a Mormon or attending a Mormon church, they can retroactively make you one.

 

One day your dead and cruising around the boring standard heaven, but the next thing you know you've entered Mormon heaven and can't get out.

 

Apparently they've retroactively "converted" all the Jews that were killed by the Nazis. I can't remember the exact logic for it, but probably about saving the tormented souls of the Jews languishing in the Jewish afterlife. I suppose if I was Jewish I'd be a bit offended.

 

I invited some Mo's in for a chat the other evening when they came by. I was curious as to what their sales pitch would be for converting. Turns out they don't really have one. The guys approach was like, I'm a mormon and I feel better being a mormon than if I wasn't one so you'd like being a mormon too. Nice enough kids though.

 

My friend pointed out that he thought these "missions" are less about trying to convert people and more for the kids that go on them, to test their faith I suppose. It seems pretty disingenuous to me. But as Pat said, nice enough people as long as your not gay.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Religion: Turning nice people into not-nice people since the first psychotic caveman learned to speak.

[ivan]

Religion: Turning nice people into not-nice people since the first psychotic caveman learned to speak.

nonsense, religion makes for some fine muzak

[video:youtube]

[G-spotter]

Go on mormonchat.org and ask them how magnets work. I dare you.

[denalidave]

 

Think real hard. (Difficult for you, I know.) It may become easier once the smoke clears.

if the gov won't tax the property of a catholic church, then it should allow me the same right when i proclaim myself high-priest of my own little fantasy faith

LOL(P)

 

Having grow'd up in Utah, some of my best friends are Mo's. They certainly are some of the nicest people around. I'd bet most of the younger generation Mo's are pretty tolerant of more liberal ideas, like gays, pot, etc. Seems to be the case for most of America. Sure, you still got plenty of hate'n and holding the old school line but it sure seems that way for much of the country that I've been seeing lately. Aint never been to Texas though. I hear the hate is still going strong there.

 

 

[Mtguide]

I spent 5 years living in Logan,Utah attending Utah State. Not really a very long time, but enough to gather a few basics. To begin with, most of the Mormons I knew were very nice folks, some were terrific. The Mormons I didn't care much for tended to be church and civic leaders, politicians, etc. Pretty much the same as everywhere. People who were convinced that they had the right to tell everybody else how to live.

 

For the sake of trying to understand my Mormon friends better, I actually read the Book of Mormon twice. I found it to be very imitative of the Bible, especially Old Testament, but much more poorly written, and extremely boring. Both times I came away mystified as to how apparently reasonable, sane and intelligent people could believe this stuff. Renowned author Mark Twain, describing his own month-long stay with Brigham Young and his 30-some wives during his journey west to Virgina City and San Francisco, had much the same impression, in his great book "Roughing It". Twain in particular lampooned the two letters from Mormon elders prefacing the BoM, in which 6 older and 6 younger elders testify to their firm conviction, based on literally nothing concrete or factual whatsoever, other than Joseph Smith telling them so, that the Book, tablets, appearance of Angel Moroni, etc. were the real thing. Twain found such credulity beyond pathetic, which is to say, hilarious.

 

More germain to the present day is some of the theology that continues to drive Mormon social and political actions in the real world, and in general not for the better. The teachings essentially have women over a barrel: in the Mormon cosmology, there are 11 levels of heaven. Any Mormon elder can ascend to the highest heaven whether he is married or not, over his lifetime. But no Mormon woman may enter even the lowest heaven unless she marries a Mormon man and bears him children, the more the better. This of course raises hell with any idea of family planning, overpopulation and it's corresponding effects on the environment, urban sprawl, pollution, etc. And of course Mormonism is currently the fastest growing "religion" in the world. So these ideas are not just dawdling around idly.

 

But the Mormons, at least those in the hierarchy, don't fret much about this, because they have a belief that's very similar, in it's effect, to the conservative/evangelical Christians of the "Rapture" persuasion, that it doesn't really matter, but with a little different twist. Unlike the Revelations/Rapture folks, Mormons aren't so concerned with the end of the world, because their belief is that there are an infinite number of habitable earth-like planets in the cosmos, and that when they die, each Mormon couple that have been married for eternity in the tabernacle, will be sent to their very own brand-new, untouched planet, there to be fruitful and multiply, ad infinitum. So, why worry about what happens to this planet, there's always a zillion more out there, right? Rrrriiight.

 

Also, many of the more intelligent and awakened Mormon women I met had a huge and intense streak of passive/aggressive bitterness regarding men and the overwhelmingly male domination of the church, the banks, education, you name it. Many Mormon women are really a mess, and I don't blame them.

 

Finally, many Mormons in positions of corporate and governmental power have no problem with less-than ethical behavior, being utterly convinced of the rightness of their faith, so that whatever promotes the growth and power of the church is OK. This can be extremely subtle and not readily apparent; but if you live in Utah long enough, it is, well, "interesting" to witness how thoroughly Mormon nepotism and influence control everything from access to employment and upward mobility, to education, the press, the police, really every facet of life.

 

The Mormons actually come by this trait honestly enough, because it goes way back in their history to the very beginnings of the founding of Salt Lake City. When the Mormons were on their way west, the main group had made it to Fort Bridger,Wyoming, owned and run by none other than the great mountain man Jim Bridger. And the Mormons were pretty much on their last legs by the time they got there. Their wagons and carts were falling apart, their horses, mules and oxen emaciated, sick, sorefooted and lame, harness worn down to nothing, their clothing tattered rags, starving and weak, and it was very late in the season, with winter full upon them. To try to make it to the Salt Lake basin would have been suicidal.

 

Bridger, a skilled blacksmith and trader as well as one of the greatest of the mountain men, had done extremely well with his fort and trading post. He magnanimously put the Mormons up for the winter at no charge, several hundred of them; he clothed and fed them, doctored them and their livestock with skill and generosity, repaired, rebuilt, and even replaced their worn-out wagons and harness, put new shoes on all the animals (this was when each shoe, and all the nails, had to be made in forge and anvil, by hand, from scratch, out of bar stock- no"keg" shoes or nails were available.)And he taught his skills to them while he was doing it. He taught them customs and ways of negotiating with the local Indians, the Utes, and helped them form important alliances and understandings which would benefit them immensely in years ahead. He drew maps and informed them of suitable areas for farming, orchards and raising livestock, the patterns of the weather, the best water, availability of timber, on and on.Suffice it to say, that without the kindness and largess of Jim Bridger, it's very likely that the Mormon church, and Salt Lake City, would have died a-borning.

 

So, in the spring, renewed, restored, and with a fresh conviction in the heavenly ordained certainty of their future success, the Mormons departed Fort Bridger, and the rest is history. But, not quite. Not so fast.

 

Yes, the Mormons made it, settled down in the Salt Lake valley and in a remarkably short two or three years had a thriving small city, a Tabernacle, abundant crops and farms, and the future looked rosy. It was then that they came up with an even bolder plan. Since Fort Bridger was a major stop on the Oregon Trail for all commerce and a big money maker, why, it only made sense that the Mormons should control that, too. So, in the spring of 1850 or thereabouts, an army of several hundred well-mounted and heavily armed men, complete with cannon and plenty of powder and shot, journeyed to Fort Bridger and attacked the post. Bridger fought off the initial assault with the help of fellow fur traders and a number of Utes and other Indians who were staying at the fort while trading. The Mormons, well prepared, settled in for a siege of several months and finally were chased off by the combined forces of the Northern Utes and the US Cavalry, after causing damage to the outer walls and structures in the fort that took over a year to repair, what with having to cut and haul fresh timber from the Uintas.Truly one of the great examples in all of human history of "biting that hand that fed you". Just amazing. But, hey, it was all for the church, to the glory of Our Savior and the Kingdom of Heaven, right? What could possibly be wrong with that???? Yeah, you tell 'em, there, Jim Bob(or should I say "Reed" or "Lamar" or Lavar", or "J. Bob", etc.)...an' tell 'em ole' Joe Smith sent ya...an' ya better believe it, too, lest the Angel Moroni smite thine ass with a flaming 2 x 4...

 

While living in Utah I was offered what would have been a very good long-term job as a climbing, river and backcountry guide for Canyonlands and pretty the entire desert southwest. But it would have required me to be based in Monticello. It only took one season for me to see that, while I could certainly live there and work as a guide, if I really wanted to settle there and raise a family, I would never, in my lifetime, have any say whatsoever in the community, whether it was the schools, the local government, the county, etc. I was a "Gentile", once and for all, and nothing would ever change that. And my family, my children, would have to face that each and every day. So I turned it down. It would never have worked.

 

These are at least the impressions I gathered during my time there in the late 80's. I left Utah for good in 1989, and have only returned to go climbing, hiking, etc on my own or with friends. Perhaps things have changed since then. The relocation of Black Diamond and Patagonia to Salt Lake City certainly indicates that SLC is changing, but I wonder really how much. There are many good things going on in SLC, the arts are very strong, it's become much more open and diverse, although I don't know if you can really call it cosmopolitan yet. Hundreds of young Mormons work in service positions and casinos in Las Vegas and Reno, in areas that,theologically the church frowns on, but it's OK because it helps the church make money. There's that old joke about the statue of Joseph Smith(or is it Brigham Young?--can't remember) in front of the Tabernacle, with his back to the church, and his hand, palm up, outstretched to the Zion's Bank across the street. "Gimme some green, there, fellas...".

 

Further topics include the huge and ongoing efforts to "prove" the truth of the Book of Mormon with piles of research by armies of archaeologists, geologists,forensic anthropologists,paleontologists, biologists,botanists, dendrologists, you name it, heavily funded and trained at Brigham Young University and sent all over the world trying to knit together airtight evidence of the origins of all Native american tribes as descended from the Twelve Lost Tribes of Israel, all the while pounding all this nonsense into whatever indigenous people are handy wherever they roam.But, as you say, and I totally agree, they are just some of the nicest people around...

 

Now then, Texas, and haters; now that's something I know a little about, a lot more than what I might know about Utah. My family moved to Fort worth , from Portland, OR, in 1952, and I grew up there and graduated from high school. 15 years. All I will say is just a few short things, all true:

 

I shook John F. Kennedy's hand the morning he was shot, after a speech he gave in front of the Hotel Texas, before he went to Dallas. When I got back to school,(I was a senior in High school)I was given 10 demerits for skipping the morning classes to go see the President. When it was announced over the PA system that the President had been shot, the guy sitting next to me at the table in Art class, (a kid I'd gone to school with since the first grade), jumped up out his chair, pumped his fist and yelled, "They GOT 'im!! They GOT that sonavubitch!!", And when it was announced that the President had died, the rebel yell thundered throughout the three stories of the largest high school in Fort Worth, 2500 students. It was loud and chilling. School was dismissed, and many students, mostly male , were running down the halls cheering. I was aghast.

 

The next spring,just a couple months short of graduation, I was jumped on my way home from school and severely beaten by 6 guys whom I'd gone to school with since the first and second grade, for making friends with several black high school students, whom I'd met while lifting weights at the downtown YMCA, the only integrated gym in the city. When I got home and told my parents what happened, my mother wanted to call the police, but my Dad said, "We can't. If we do, it'll just get worse. They'll come after the whole family; they'll burn us out, and no body will ever be arrested or charged for it." He went on to say that I was going away to college in Washington anyway,but my four younger sisters still had to stay there and be able to go to school safely. Even so, my family wound up moving back to Portland three years later, because the threats had continued and gotten more serious.

 

Finally, when that poor black man was dragged to death behind a pickup near San Antonio about 7 years ago, my first thought was shock and disgust. But my very next thought was, " Of course." Because I wasn't one bit surprised. "Yeah, you bet",I said to myself, "after all these years, that could sure as hell still happen in Texas, and anywhere else in the Deep South.No damned surprise there...".

 

In Texas, and throughout the Deep south, they are still fighting the Civil War, very, very seriously. There are still all kinds of subtle and mean, vicious little ways white Texans and other white southerners have of daily seeing to it that blacks and Hispanics are denied their civil rights, made to feel inferior, and are continually needled and harassed in a never-ending attempt to maintain Jim Crow and return to the Confederacy and the enforcement of slavery. I didn't find Utah Mormons to be haters, as such. They might be prejudiced,closed-minded, conservative, or ignorant, but they do not hate the way Texans or Mississippians or Alabamans do. The depth, coldness, cruelty, and implacable brutality of the hatred in Texas, and in particular Mississippi, is very very scary indeed. When they say, "Don't Mess with Texas", they really, really mean it in no uncertain terms, and you take it lightly at your very great peril.

 

My father began his career in life insurance in Fort Worth in 1955. He went through a period of training, and when he was assigned to an agency and was about to leave on his first solo client appointment, his manager called him into his office before he left. "Now, son" the man told him, "in this bidness, ya'll are dealin' with people's very most private and personal information and affairs. And it can sometimes be a little, well, touchy, and folks can get a little worked up, ya know? So what I just wanta tell you is, Never, and I mean, NEVER get into a heated argument with a Texan, because, he'll SHOOT you."

And he added, "Now other than that, theyah great folks."

 

When Dad came home that day and told Mom about it, she was astounded. "What kind of place IS this?!" she said, "Dear God in heaven....". Both of my folks had grown up in very tough circumstances in the Chicago of the Roaring Twenties, the era of Al Capone, Bugsy, Frank Nitti, The Untouchables, etc. But they used to say all the time, that until we moved to Fort Worth, they had never seen anything to compare to the shootings, knifings, bludgeonings, assaults and general mayhem and daily violence that filled the papers and TV news all the time.

 

In the years since I've worked all over 9 western states in logging, heavy construction, as a working cowboy, equipment operator, welder, etc. on dams amd power plants, on ranches, the waterfront, etc. around all kinds of some of the roughest and most colorful characters you could hope to meet, and yet the only place I have EVER felt physically threatened, at almost any time, was while growing up in Texas. It's just another WORLD down there, not just another state. Chuck Norris thinks Texas should secede from the Union, and appoint him the president of Texas. It really is just one HELL of a place.

 

As a kid I had summer jobs haying on ranches and farms out around Fort Worth, Mineral Wells,Weatherford, etc., and one summer on my uncle's farm near Green Forest, Arkansas. And I found that I really liked the country people. They weren't anywhere near as bigoted as the city folks. They worked shoulder to shoulder with their black hired hands and Mexican braceros, and those were also some very fine people, albeit very poor and uneducated. It was a place and time where these men were respected for the way they worked, for who and what they were, no matter the color of their skin. And this from Texas hill and grasslands ranchers and farm people. The hired help sat to table with the owners in their kitchens or dining rooms. There were bunkhouses for the hands, but they were always welcome on the porch or in the kitchen or dining room for meals. Such things would never happen in the city. And of course even if you were white, if you were poor, in the city, you were "poor white trash".No one in the country would ever say anything like that.It was a great lesson for me as a boy, and it's the part of Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana, to some extent, that I still love and remember fondly. Mississippi and Alabama, I'm sorry but they're still just MEAN.

[denalidave]

Wow! Thanks for the insightful, provocative and well thought out educational perspective, MtGuide. I already knew much of that stuff (but also long forgotten most of it) about the Mormon's but still learned a lot. Seems like Texas aint no place I want to go but will likely be there to experience it first hand as there are a lot of wind farms there and I'm working as a traveling wind tech. Personally, I've never had any desire to go to Texas, mainly because they don't have any real mountains. I've heard Austin is a cool city though.

 

"Alaska, pissing of Texan's for over 50 years". Texas is actually the third largest state... If you cut Alaska in half, Texas is still quite a bit smaller...

 

Growing up in Ogden, my Dad managed a "Christian" radio station. When the missionaries would come to our house, he would shred their believes to pieces. Inevitably, they would send some higher ups to "convince" us they were right. Still, he would destroy their week theology. Eventually, the missionaries black listed our house and we did not have to put up with it anymore. If only I could get that to happen at my house, where the JW's are so prevalent. No matter how many time I tell them I don't need any magazines, they still come back, usually at the worst possibly time when the kids were napping or I am busy with some manual labor.

[ivan]

I spent 5 years living in Logan,Utah attending Utah State. Not really a very long time, but enough to gather a few basics. To begin with, most of the Mormons I knew were very nice folks, some were terrific. The Mormons I didn't care much for tended to be church and civic leaders, politicians, etc. Pretty much the same as everywhere. People who were convinced that they had the right to tell everybody else how to live.

 

For the sake of trying to understand my Mormon friends better, I actually read the Book of Mormon twice. I found it to be very imitative of the Bible, especially Old Testament, but much more poorly written, and extremely boring. Both times I came away mystified as to how apparently reasonable, sane and intelligent people could believe this stuff. Renowned author Mark Twain, describing his own month-long stay with Brigham Young and his 30-some wives during his journey west to Virgina City and San Francisco, had much the same impression, in his great book "Roughing It". Twain in particular lampooned the two letters from Mormon elders prefacing the BoM, in which 6 older and 6 younger elders testify to their firm conviction, based on literally nothing concrete or factual whatsoever, other than Joseph Smith telling them so, that the Book, tablets, appearance of Angel Moroni, etc. were the real thing. Twain found such credulity beyond pathetic, which is to say, hilarious.

 

More germain to the present day is some of the theology that continues to drive Mormon social and political actions in the real world, and in general not for the better. The teachings essentially have women over a barrel: in the Mormon cosmology, there are 11 levels of heaven. Any Mormon elder can ascend to the highest heaven whether he is married or not, over his lifetime. But no Mormon woman may enter even the lowest heaven unless she marries a Mormon man and bears him children, the more the better. This of course raises hell with any idea of family planning, overpopulation and it's corresponding effects on the environment, urban sprawl, pollution, etc. And of course Mormonism is currently the fastest growing "religion" in the world. So these ideas are not just dawdling around idly.

 

But the Mormons, at least those in the hierarchy, don't fret much about this, because they have a belief that's very similar, in it's effect, to the conservative/evangelical Christians of the "Rapture" persuasion, that it doesn't really matter, but with a little different twist. Unlike the Revelations/Rapture folks, Mormons aren't so concerned with the end of the world, because their belief is that there are an infinite number of habitable earth-like planets in the cosmos, and that when they die, each Mormon couple that have been married for eternity in the tabernacle, will be sent to their very own brand-new, untouched planet, there to be fruitful and multiply, ad infinitum. So, why worry about what happens to this planet, there's always a zillion more out there, right? Rrrriiight.

 

Also, many of the more intelligent and awakened Mormon women I met had a huge and intense streak of passive/aggressive bitterness regarding men and the overwhelmingly male domination of the church, the banks, education, you name it. Many Mormon women are really a mess, and I don't blame them.

 

Finally, many Mormons in positions of corporate and governmental power have no problem with less-than ethical behavior, being utterly convinced of the rightness of their faith, so that whatever promotes the growth and power of the church is OK. This can be extremely subtle and not readily apparent; but if you live in Utah long enough, it is, well, "interesting" to witness how thoroughly Mormon nepotism and influence control everything from access to employment and upward mobility, to education, the press, the police, really every facet of life.

 

The Mormons actually come by this trait honestly enough, because it goes way back in their history to the very beginnings of the founding of Salt Lake City. When the Mormons were on their way west, the main group had made it to Fort Bridger,Wyoming, owned and run by none other than the great mountain man Jim Bridger. And the Mormons were pretty much on their last legs by the time they got there. Their wagons and carts were falling apart, their horses, mules and oxen emaciated, sick, sorefooted and lame, harness worn down to nothing, their clothing tattered rags, starving and weak, and it was very late in the season, with winter full upon them. To try to make it to the Salt Lake basin would have been suicidal.

 

Bridger, a skilled blacksmith and trader as well as one of the greatest of the mountain men, had done extremely well with his fort and trading post. He magnanimously put the Mormons up for the winter at no charge, several hundred of them; he clothed and fed them, doctored them and their livestock with skill and generosity, repaired, rebuilt, and even replaced their worn-out wagons and harness, put new shoes on all the animals (this was when each shoe, and all the nails, had to be made in forge and anvil, by hand, from scratch, out of bar stock- no"keg" shoes or nails were available.)And he taught his skills to them while he was doing it. He taught them customs and ways of negotiating with the local Indians, the Utes, and helped them form important alliances and understandings which would benefit them immensely in years ahead. He drew maps and informed them of suitable areas for farming, orchards and raising livestock, the patterns of the weather, the best water, availability of timber, on and on.Suffice it to say, that without the kindness and largess of Jim Bridger, it's very likely that the Mormon church, and Salt Lake City, would have died a-borning.

 

So, in the spring, renewed, restored, and with a fresh conviction in the heavenly ordained certainty of their future success, the Mormons departed Fort Bridger, and the rest is history. But, not quite. Not so fast.

 

Yes, the Mormons made it, settled down in the Salt Lake valley and in a remarkably short two or three years had a thriving small city, a Tabernacle, abundant crops and farms, and the future looked rosy. It was then that they came up with an even bolder plan. Since Fort Bridger was a major stop on the Oregon Trail for all commerce and a big money maker, why, it only made sense that the Mormons should control that, too. So, in the spring of 1850 or thereabouts, an army of several hundred well-mounted and heavily armed men, complete with cannon and plenty of powder and shot, journeyed to Fort Bridger and attacked the post. Bridger fought off the initial assault with the help of fellow fur traders and a number of Utes and other Indians who were staying at the fort while trading. The Mormons, well prepared, settled in for a siege of several months and finally were chased off by the combined forces of the Northern Utes and the US Cavalry, after causing damage to the outer walls and structures in the fort that took over a year to repair, what with having to cut and haul fresh timber from the Uintas.Truly one of the great examples in all of human history of "biting that hand that fed you". Just amazing. But, hey, it was all for the church, to the glory of Our Savior and the Kingdom of Heaven, right? What could possibly be wrong with that???? Yeah, you tell 'em, there, Jim Bob(or should I say "Reed" or "Lamar" or Lavar", or "J. Bob", etc.)...an' tell 'em ole' Joe Smith sent ya...an' ya better believe it, too, lest the Angel Moroni smite thine ass with a flaming 2 x 4...

 

While living in Utah I was offered what would have been a very good long-term job as a climbing, river and backcountry guide for Canyonlands and pretty the entire desert southwest. But it would have required me to be based in Monticello. It only took one season for me to see that, while I could certainly live there and work as a guide, if I really wanted to settle there and raise a family, I would never, in my lifetime, have any say whatsoever in the community, whether it was the schools, the local government, the county, etc. I was a "Gentile", once and for all, and nothing would ever change that. And my family, my children, would have to face that each and every day. So I turned it down. It would never have worked.

 

These are at least the impressions I gathered during my time there in the late 80's. I left Utah for good in 1989, and have only returned to go climbing, hiking, etc on my own or with friends. Perhaps things have changed since then. The relocation of Black Diamond and Patagonia to Salt Lake City certainly indicates that SLC is changing, but I wonder really how much. There are many good things going on in SLC, the arts are very strong, it's become much more open and diverse, although I don't know if you can really call it cosmopolitan yet. Hundreds of young Mormons work in service positions and casinos in Las Vegas and Reno, in areas that,theologically the church frowns on, but it's OK because it helps the church make money. There's that old joke about the statue of Joseph Smith(or is it Brigham Young?--can't remember) in front of the Tabernacle, with his back to the church, and his hand, palm up, outstretched to the Zion's Bank across the street. "Gimme some green, there, fellas...".

 

Further topics include the huge and ongoing efforts to "prove" the truth of the Book of Mormon with piles of research by armies of archaeologists, geologists,forensic anthropologists,paleontologists, biologists,botanists, dendrologists, you name it, heavily funded and trained at Brigham Young University and sent all over the world trying to knit together airtight evidence of the origins of all Native american tribes as descended from the Twelve Lost Tribes of Israel, all the while pounding all this nonsense into whatever indigenous people are handy wherever they roam.But, as you say, and I totally agree, they are just some of the nicest people around...

 

Now then, Texas, and haters; now that's something I know a little about, a lot more than what I might know about Utah. My family moved to Fort worth , from Portland, OR, in 1952, and I grew up there and graduated from high school. 15 years. All I will say is just a few short things, all true:

 

I shook John F. Kennedy's hand the morning he was shot, after a speech he gave in front of the Hotel Texas, before he went to Dallas. When I got back to school,(I was a senior in High school)I was given 10 demerits for skipping the morning classes to go see the President. When it was announced over the PA system that the President had been shot, the guy sitting next to me at the table in Art class, (a kid I'd gone to school with since the first grade), jumped up out his chair, pumped his fist and yelled, "They GOT 'im!! They GOT that sonavubitch!!", And when it was announced that the President had died, the rebel yell thundered throughout the three stories of the largest high school in Fort Worth, 2500 students. It was loud and chilling. School was dismissed, and many students, mostly male , were running down the halls cheering. I was aghast.

 

The next spring,just a couple months short of graduation, I was jumped on my way home from school and severely beaten by 6 guys whom I'd gone to school with since the first and second grade, for making friends with several black high school students, whom I'd met while lifting weights at the downtown YMCA, the only integrated gym in the city. When I got home and told my parents what happened, my mother wanted to call the police, but my Dad said, "We can't. If we do, it'll just get worse. They'll come after the whole family; they'll burn us out, and no body will ever be arrested or charged for it." He went on to say that I was going away to college in Washington anyway,but my four younger sisters still had to stay there and be able to go to school safely. Even so, my family wound up moving back to Portland three years later, because the threats had continued and gotten more serious.

 

Finally, when that poor black man was dragged to death behind a pickup near San Antonio about 7 years ago, my first thought was shock and disgust. But my very next thought was, " Of course." Because I wasn't one bit surprised. "Yeah, you bet",I said to myself, "after all these years, that could sure as hell still happen in Texas, and anywhere else in the Deep South.No damned surprise there...".

 

In Texas, and throughout the Deep south, they are still fighting the Civil War, very, very seriously. There are still all kinds of subtle and mean, vicious little ways white Texans and other white southerners have of daily seeing to it that blacks and Hispanics are denied their civil rights, made to feel inferior, and are continually needled and harassed in a never-ending attempt to maintain Jim Crow and return to the Confederacy and the enforcement of slavery. I didn't find Utah Mormons to be haters, as such. They might be prejudiced,closed-minded, conservative, or ignorant, but they do not hate the way Texans or Mississippians or Alabamans do. The depth, coldness, cruelty, and implacable brutality of the hatred in Texas, and in particular Mississippi, is very very scary indeed. When they say, "Don't Mess with Texas", they really, really mean it in no uncertain terms, and you take it lightly at your very great peril.

 

My father began his career in life insurance in Fort Worth in 1955. He went through a period of training, and when he was assigned to an agency and was about to leave on his first solo client appointment, his manager called him into his office before he left. "Now, son" the man told him, "in this bidness, ya'll are dealin' with people's very most private and personal information and affairs. And it can sometimes be a little, well, touchy, and folks can get a little worked up, ya know? So what I just wanta tell you is, Never, and I mean, NEVER get into a heated argument with a Texan, because, he'll SHOOT you."

And he added, "Now other than that, theyah great folks."

 

When Dad came home that day and told Mom about it, she was astounded. "What kind of place IS this?!" she said, "Dear God in heaven....". Both of my folks had grown up in very tough circumstances in the Chicago of the Roaring Twenties, the era of Al Capone, Bugsy, Frank Nitti, The Untouchables, etc. But they used to say all the time, that until we moved to Fort Worth, they had never seen anything to compare to the shootings, knifings, bludgeonings, assaults and general mayhem and daily violence that filled the papers and TV news all the time.

 

In the years since I've worked all over 9 western states in logging, heavy construction, as a working cowboy, equipment operator, welder, etc. on dams amd power plants, on ranches, the waterfront, etc. around all kinds of some of the roughest and most colorful characters you could hope to meet, and yet the only place I have EVER felt physically threatened, at almost any time, was while growing up in Texas. It's just another WORLD down there, not just another state. Chuck Norris thinks Texas should secede from the Union, and appoint him the president of Texas. It really is just one HELL of a place.

 

As a kid I had summer jobs haying on ranches and farms out around Fort Worth, Mineral Wells,Weatherford, etc., and one summer on my uncle's farm near Green Forest, Arkansas. And I found that I really liked the country people. They weren't anywhere near as bigoted as the city folks. They worked shoulder to shoulder with their black hired hands and Mexican braceros, and those were also some very fine people, albeit very poor and uneducated. It was a place and time where these men were respected for the way they worked, for who and what they were, no matter the color of their skin. And this from Texas hill and grasslands ranchers and farm people. The hired help sat to table with the owners in their kitchens or dining rooms. There were bunkhouses for the hands, but they were always welcome on the porch or in the kitchen or dining room for meals. Such things would never happen in the city. And of course even if you were white, if you were poor, in the city, you were "poor white trash".No one in the country would ever say anything like that.It was a great lesson for me as a boy, and it's the part of Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana, to some extent, that I still love and remember fondly. Mississippi and Alabama, I'm sorry but they're still just MEAN.

you need to cut n' paste this into a full length tr! ) not sure what the title is just yet...