Taxes[Wall of grammatically incorrect text]

[Lucky Larry]

Taxes, we don't need no stinking badges. If this thread makes you mad congratulations, your still paying attention/taxes. I would like to put forth the idea that we already pay enough taxes to pay for the stewardship of our 'the US citizens' wilderness areas and such. Consider for a moment some of the taxes you may already know about, some of them may be called fees: federal, state, city, county, metro, business, income, sales, school, property, land, sewer, water, electricity, phone, gas, booze, cigs, fishing, hunting, parking, natural gas, garbage, travel, airport, car, long distance, insurance(car, medical), war, ssi, ss, unemployment. I'm sure I have missed a lot and pretty sure some would not consider paying for war a tax; however, if you consider the long term costs?

Now consider all the businesses and corporations and agriculture and foods and medicine and... you buy that get subsidies payed for with your taxes. I really do not have a clue, maybe billcoe will help out here, but I have a sneaky suspicion that when everything is figured into it that we probably pay more, and get less, than a lot of countries. The rhetoric is the same as when that one dick president said Americans need to work harder/more. Just work more and pay more taxes. I heard 'we' even voted dwn the rich paying more cause it would hurt the economy. Good argument, is that why the rich are leaving Switzerland and England and Canada and Germany and..? The trickle down from war just goes into fewer pockets. That's why there so poplar w/the rich. That's why diplomatic solutions are not a priority; nobody gets rich from them. Back to the subterfuge.

Edited November 22, 2010 by oldlarry

[Nitrox]

Wall of grammatically incorrect text.

 

 

[ivan]

now that larry's discovered spray, he threatens to double his postcount in just a day or two!

 

actually larry, i fyou could just lug yer internet over to jim's and take dictation w/ a little bit of yer shit on the sly!

[billcoe]

I don't know. I hear a proposal to do away with income tax. They said a national sales tax, 22% on everything, was the way to go. I'm like: what kind of fucked up rich dude thinking is that bullshit? Rich dude miser gets to pay the same as a poor person. In fact, as a percentage, the poor folks will be taking it in the ass. They still need to buy shoes, buy clothes, the same appliances except the percentage they pay will be huge.

 

I thought that we were going to stop raping the poor when Bush left office, now I see that the current president is wanting to re-up the Bush tax cuts for the rich. So lets call them the Obama tax cuts for the rich. Not a problem he says, we can keep borrowing the money from the Chinese. Uhhh, shit.

 

As a country we need to spend a shitload less and the tax cuts for the rich need to expire. Should have never done them in the first place.[/rant]

[Off_White]

I think its arguable that the tax cuts for the middle class need to expire too - for the most part they haven't even noticed they've gotten them because it just shows up as a little more in each paycheck, rather than a $500 check from the US Treasury. Yeah yeah, I know that's my tax cut too, so what.

 

Since the Bush tax cuts ushered in the slowest growth decade in the history of the country, I see no real justification for the notion that continuing them is essential for creating more jobs in the US.

 

Contrary to what Old Larry posted, if you think you're taxed too much, the only thing you're paying attention to is infotainment.

 

 

[Lucky Larry]

Wall of grammatically incorrect text.

 

probably, mostly, d'oh

[Lucky Larry]

Once upon a time the people got reality happy. the jobs were sent to communist China by resentful labor hating democracy loving corporations that are in love with the bottom line. why hire these greedy lazy Americans who eat up all our profits when we can hire the commies for pennies and sell the crap back to the fat lazy American; who needs them anyway. The happy corporations went on their merry way while patting themselves on their backs for all the charity work they were doing for the environment. People were living in a 'greener' world now that they could throw away all their useless and 'dirty' outdated buildings, TV's, computers, phones and cars. We feel green and clean--our consciousness is even green and expanding. Everyone was so happy that they (Clinton) decided to let people loan and barrow unregulated money. Don't worry, they said , we trust them. Of course the foxes really knew where the money was to be made--placing the bets on the loans not being paid back. What a deal, they said , we can make money on bad loans at the tail end and money on the front end of the loans too. One day the shit hit the fan. Oops, said the sturgeon, I didn't mean to cut your hands and balls off, I was just trying to help you with a loan (Clinton) and a way to make a living (Nixon), spread democracy in those bad countries (Bush), and fight a war on terrorism (Obama). I understand, said the bewildered citizen, you were just trying your best to fuck me in the ass, everyone makes a mistake now and then.

 

Edited November 22, 2010 by oldlarry

[Fairweather]

I think its arguable that the tax cuts for the middle class need to expire too - for the most part they haven't even noticed they've gotten them because it just shows up as a little more in each paycheck, rather than a $500 check from the US Treasury. Yeah yeah, I know that's my tax cut too, so what.

 

Since the Bush tax cuts ushered in the slowest growth decade in the history of the country, I see no real justification for the notion that continuing them is essential for creating more jobs in the US.

 

Contrary to what Old Larry posted, if you think you're taxed too much, the only thing you're paying attention to is infotainment.

 

 

For once I agree with OW. Let it expire for everyone. As for the poor, well, the bottom 40% of wage earners in the US don't pay any federal income tax as it now stands--and they'll continue to get the same sweet deal.

 

As for a national VAT: it would require a constitutional amendment, and good luck with that. But if it were so bound to the exclusive purpose of paying down the national debt to a specific % of GDP--and if Dems didn't turn an in-kind portion of the general fund into yet another state welfare program--I'll bet more than just a handful of righties would go for it.

[murraysovereign]

I don't know. I hear a proposal to do away with income tax. They said a national sales tax, 22% on everything, was the way to go. I'm like: what kind of fucked up rich dude thinking is that bullshit? Rich dude miser gets to pay the same as a poor person. In fact, as a percentage, the poor folks will be taking it in the ass. They still need to buy shoes, buy clothes, the same appliances except the percentage they pay will be huge.

 

This is a common concern regarding consumption taxes of all kinds, and it appears legit on the face of it. But think about it: when "poor folks" buy shoes, they're getting them at WalMart for $20, VAT @ 22% = $4.40; when "the rich" buy shoes, they're buying ManoloBlablablas for $400, $500, $600 and more per pair. VAT @ 22% on $500 shoes = $110. When "poor folks" buy cars, they're buying 2nd- or 3rd-hand used cars for $500, VAT = $110; when "the rich" buy cars, they're buying Porsches or Jags or Caddies, or vintage collector cars, or monster "Death Star" SUV things, VAT @ 22% on a $100,000 vehicle comes to $22,000. Tell me again who's paying more?

 

Also, there are ways of softening the blow for those at the lower end of the income scale. Our HST structure includes rebates for those at the lowest income levels, meaning they effectively pay no sales tax at all. It's a sliding scale, so as your income increases your rebate is reduced, until one day you find that the rebates aren't coming anymore. By that time you're making enough that the sales tax is affordable. Hell, I feel like I'm doing OK personally, but somehow I still qualify for small rebates that are deposited directly into my bank account quarterly.

 

In general, I prefer consumption taxes over income taxes any day. Taxes are a disincentive - want people to smoke less, raise tobacco taxes. Want people to drink less, raise alcohol taxes. Want people to work harder, save more money, invest more - reduce their income taxes, and recoup that revenue with consumption taxes. In other words, go ahead and penalize me for spending my money, but don't penalize me for earning it.

 

You want all those jobs to stop migrating to China? Right now you're taxing the earnings of all US-based companies, and all their employees. Those companies have to pay their employees more, simply because a chunk of their pay disappears before they even see it. In order to stretch what's left, they then spend their take-home pay on products made in China by companies that don't have to pay those income taxes. What if those products could be built in the US again, by companies and individuals that don't see their earnings being taxed at the source? By replacing income taxes with a VAT, you ensure that those Chinese imports are being taxed at the same rate as domestic products. The Chinese will still enjoy some degree of advantage due to their colossal labour supply, but at least you won't be deliberately building that advantage into your economy via your taxation policies.

 

As long as it's designed with adequate protection for the lowest income-earners by way of rebates or something of that sort, I'm all for it.

 

Cue JayB in 3... 2... 1...

[Fairweather]

 

In general, I prefer consumption taxes over income taxes any day. Taxes are a disincentive - want people to smoke less, raise tobacco taxes. Want people to drink less, raise alcohol taxes. Want people to work harder, save more money, invest more - reduce their income taxes, and recoup that revenue with consumption taxes. In other words, go ahead and penalize me for spending my money, but don't penalize me for earning it.

 

 

The so-called progressives here in Washington state have been decrying our sales tax as "regressive" and trying to impose an income tax for decades. I agree with pretty much everything you said above. Not sure your American progressive counterparts see things like you do.

[Hugh Conway]

I'd give a shit what the resource banana republic to the north thinks when they aren't dependent on selling resources to China for China to turn into crap to sell to the rest of the world & themselves

[AlpineK]

Given your sales tax rate of 22% Let's say there are two income brackets.

 

• Bracket 1 income $20,000 buying $20 shoes
  
• Bracket 2 income $500,000 buying $500 shoes
   
  

 

Taxes

• The Bracket 1 fellow pays $4.40 which is .022% of $20,000
  
• The Bracket 2 fellow pays $110 which is .022% of $500,000
   
  

 

If you throw in a poor millionaire, or only $1,000,000 income, to the shoe club buying $500 shoes. The millionaire faces the same $110 tax, but now the tax is .011% of $1,000,000. To make taxes equal then the millionaire needs to pay $220 in tax for shoes. The millionaire needs to buy $1000 shoes.

 

I don't know much about about shoes, but obviously the millionaire can buy any shoe he want. If he want he can buy the $20 shoes and only give the government $4.40. On the other hand the fellow in Bracket 1 has shoes which are trashed. If he wants manufactured shoes he can only buy the $20 shoes.

 

Of course the Bracket 1 fellow could kill stray dogs then skin them and make leather for free shoes. That takes time and he needs to make that $20,000

 

I know incentive to work harder so everybody can be millionaires There aren't many jobs that pay that much, and in any case somebody still has to take out the trash, and mop the floors.

 

 

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I don't know. I hear a proposal to do away with income tax. They said a national sales tax, 22% on everything, was the way to go. I'm like: what kind of fucked up rich dude thinking is that bullshit? Rich dude miser gets to pay the same as a poor person. In fact, as a percentage, the poor folks will be taking it in the ass. They still need to buy shoes, buy clothes, the same appliances except the percentage they pay will be huge.

 

This is a common concern regarding consumption taxes of all kinds, and it appears legit on the face of it. But think about it: when "poor folks" buy shoes, they're getting them at WalMart for $20, VAT @ 22% = $4.40; when "the rich" buy shoes, they're buying ManoloBlablablas for $400, $500, $600 and more per pair. VAT @ 22% on $500 shoes = $110. When "poor folks" buy cars, they're buying 2nd- or 3rd-hand used cars for $500, VAT = $110; when "the rich" buy cars, they're buying Porsches or Jags or Caddies, or vintage collector cars, or monster "Death Star" SUV things, VAT @ 22% on a $100,000 vehicle comes to $22,000. Tell me again who's paying more?

 

Also, there are ways of softening the blow for those at the lower end of the income scale. Our HST structure includes rebates for those at the lowest income levels, meaning they effectively pay no sales tax at all. It's a sliding scale, so as your income increases your rebate is reduced, until one day you find that the rebates aren't coming anymore. By that time you're making enough that the sales tax is affordable. Hell, I feel like I'm doing OK personally, but somehow I still qualify for small rebates that are deposited directly into my bank account quarterly.

 

In general, I prefer consumption taxes over income taxes any day. Taxes are a disincentive - want people to smoke less, raise tobacco taxes. Want people to drink less, raise alcohol taxes. Want people to work harder, save more money, invest more - reduce their income taxes, and recoup that revenue with consumption taxes. In other words, go ahead and penalize me for spending my money, but don't penalize me for earning it.

 

Amen. Ditto for real estate taxes. Over and over again we hear the "rich" don't pay their fair taxes, but you can be sure they pay through the ass for their megamansions.

 

[Jim]

I think its arguable that the tax cuts for the middle class need to expire too - for the most part they haven't even noticed they've gotten them because it just shows up as a little more in each paycheck, rather than a $500 check from the US Treasury. Yeah yeah, I know that's my tax cut too, so what.

 

Since the Bush tax cuts ushered in the slowest growth decade in the history of the country, I see no real justification for the notion that continuing them is essential for creating more jobs in the US.

 

Contrary to what Old Larry posted, if you think you're taxed too much, the only thing you're paying attention to is infotainment.

 

 

For once I agree with OW. Let it expire for everyone. As for the poor, well, the bottom 40% of wage earners in the US don't pay any federal income tax as it now stands--and they'll continue to get the same sweet deal.

 

Shoot. I think we have a quorum on this one!

[Jim]

now that larry's discovered spray, he threatens to double his postcount in just a day or two!

 

actually larry, i fyou could just lug yer internet over to jim's and take dictation w/ a little bit of yer shit on the sly!

 

Is he supposed to edit me or visa versa?

[bstach]

In any case, I am sure loopholes will be created for the rich, such as making their "Death Star" SUV purchase through their business and getting a tax refund that way. I believe this is the case in BC for the HST - businesses do not pay HST on "business inputs". Perhaps someone who know more about the HST rules can comment.

[Choada_Boy]

Given your sales tax rate of 22% Let's say there are two income brackets.

 

• Bracket 1 income $20,000 buying $20 shoes
  
• Bracket 2 income $500,000 buying $500 shoes
   
  

 

Taxes

• The Bracket 1 fellow pays $4.40 which is .022% of $20,000
  
• The Bracket 2 fellow pays $110 which is .022% of $500,000
   
  

 

If you throw in a poor millionaire, or only $1,000,000 income, to the shoe club buying $500 shoes. The millionaire faces the same $110 tax, but now the tax is .011% of $1,000,000. To make taxes equal then the millionaire needs to pay $220 in tax for shoes. The millionaire needs to buy $1000 shoes.

 

I don't know much about about shoes, but obviously the millionaire can buy any shoe he want. If he want he can buy the $20 shoes and only give the government $4.40. On the other hand the fellow in Bracket 1 has shoes which are trashed. If he wants manufactured shoes he can only buy the $20 shoes.

 

Of course the Bracket 1 fellow could kill stray dogs then skin them and make leather for free shoes. That takes time and he needs to make that $20,000

 

I know incentive to work harder so everybody can be millionaires There aren't many jobs that pay that much, and in any case somebody still has to take out the trash, and mop the floors.

 

 

 

 

 

Bracket 2 makes millions off of investments and pays zero taxes on any of that. Bracket 1 has no money to invest.

[Fairweather]

Given your sales tax rate of 22% Let's say there are two income brackets.

 

• Bracket 1 income $20,000 buying $20 shoes
  
• Bracket 2 income $500,000 buying $500 shoes
   
  

 

Taxes

• The Bracket 1 fellow pays $4.40 which is .022% of $20,000
  
• The Bracket 2 fellow pays $110 which is .022% of $500,000
   
  

 

If you throw in a poor millionaire, or only $1,000,000 income, to the shoe club buying $500 shoes. The millionaire faces the same $110 tax, but now the tax is .011% of $1,000,000. To make taxes equal then the millionaire needs to pay $220 in tax for shoes. The millionaire needs to buy $1000 shoes.

 

I don't know much about about shoes, but obviously the millionaire can buy any shoe he want. If he want he can buy the $20 shoes and only give the government $4.40. On the other hand the fellow in Bracket 1 has shoes which are trashed. If he wants manufactured shoes he can only buy the $20 shoes.

 

Of course the Bracket 1 fellow could kill stray dogs then skin them and make leather for free shoes. That takes time and he needs to make that $20,000

 

I know incentive to work harder so everybody can be millionaires There aren't many jobs that pay that much, and in any case somebody still has to take out the trash, and mop the floors.

 

 

 

 

 

Bracket 2 makes millions off of investments and pays zero taxes on any of that. Bracket 1 has no money to invest.

 

 

Obviously Choada has no investments--or at least none that he's liquidated.

[ivan]

now that larry's discovered spray, he threatens to double his postcount in just a day or two!

 

actually larry, i fyou could just lug yer internet over to jim's and take dictation w/ a little bit of yer shit on the sly!

 

Is he supposed to edit me or visa versa?

different jim - sorry, you're far too moderate!

[Choada_Boy]

I am a worthless bag of skin with little to no redeeming value.

 

and

 

In any case somebody still has to take out the trash, and mop the floors.

 

 

Yes. Someone has to take out the trash and clean the toilets. I couldn't think of a more qualified shit swabber.

 

 

[prole]

This is a common concern regarding consumption taxes of all kinds, and it appears legit on the face of it. But think about it: when "poor folks" buy shoes, they're getting them at WalMart for $20, VAT @ 22% = $4.40; when "the rich" buy shoes, they're buying ManoloBlablablas for $400, $500, $600 and more per pair. VAT @ 22% on $500 shoes = $110. When "poor folks" buy cars, they're buying 2nd- or 3rd-hand used cars for $500, VAT = $110; when "the rich" buy cars, they're buying Porsches or Jags or Caddies, or vintage collector cars, or monster "Death Star" SUV things, VAT @ 22% on a $100,000 vehicle comes to $22,000. Tell me again who's paying more?

 

Are you tardtarded? The $4.40 in sales tax paid by a "poor folk" for shoes at Walmart could feed their kid that night. The $110 sales tax on a used car is a week's worth of groceries or a quarter of a month's rent. The money is worth more when you don't have much of it. It's why sales taxes and flat taxes are considered "regressive".

 

You want all those jobs to stop migrating to China? Right now you're taxing the earnings of all US-based companies, and all their employees. Those companies have to pay their employees more, simply because a chunk of their pay disappears before they even see it. In order to stretch what's left, they then spend their take-home pay on products made in China by companies that don't have to pay those income taxes. What if those products could be built in the US again, by companies and individuals that don't see their earnings being taxed at the source? By replacing income taxes with a VAT, you ensure that those Chinese imports are being taxed at the same rate as domestic products. The Chinese will still enjoy some degree of advantage due to their colossal labour supply, but at least you won't be deliberately building that advantage into your economy via your taxation policies.

 

More gibberish. US corporations already enjoy ridiculously pro-business climate, tax-holidays, loopholes, financial offshoring, and subsidies of all sorts. Using "high taxes" as a billy-club to hold municipalities, states, and national governments hostage to skirt their financial responsibilities to the societies that sustain them is utter horseshit. If US corporations move to other countries to get out of paying taxes, they also move to take advantage of cheap marginal labor and nonexistent environmental and safety regulations. Should those be up for cuts as well?

 

 

[AlpineK]

If you can afford $500 shoes you probably own your own house. House owners get a lot of deductions that renters don't get. The fellow who can only buy $20 shoes probably rents an apartment.

[Lucky Larry]

I'm hopefully wrong on this, like my wall of... and my once upon a time... but it seems like the USA must be bank-ruptured. what's keeping this turd of a mess from sinking? is it just a numbers game ie enough people believe it is still floating keeps it floating? all very philosophical stuff or not, probably my imagination.

[Off_White]

Well, sure, we'll trash the mortgage interest deduction too. That'll hurt me too, but there you have it.

 

A sales tax based system is stupid stupid stupid, Canadians not withstanding. The wealthy reap a huge benefit from living and investing in a country that provides the stability of law and order that the US provides. They shouldn't they pay for that privilege? They already own the government and receive the highest protection, shouldn't they pay for that privilege?

 

Given that, there's no way out of the current pit that can be bought with the unnoticeable suffering of the way too wealthy, we're all gonna pay for our inattention to what government does.

 

Personally, I think all those yahoos with the "support our troops" magnetic labels should receive a tax bill for $5000 each: put up or shut up. Buying Chinese made magnetic labels does not support make.

 

Overpaid hired military subcontractors blabbing about the essential services they provide should pay double that tax. Yeah, I mean you Serenity.

[Fairweather]

I am a worthless bag of skin with little to no redeeming value.

 

and

 

In any case somebody still has to take out the trash, and mop the floors.

 

 

Yes. Someone has to take out the trash and clean the toilets. I couldn't think of a more qualified shit swabber.

 

Don't forget to deduct that ten bucks you sent to Haiti last year!