War

[allthumbs]

Here's how I see terrorism...

The evil (seriously evil, without a conscience or any redeaming values at all) psychopathic, religious zealot and devil-worship fanatics in our world should be eradicated. Period. Off their asses when available and purge society of their bullshit, anti-social behavior.

I doubt even their Mama's would miss em', and the world would be a safer, more productive place for us "normal" dudes.

[Gerg]

And who decides what is "evil" enough to warrant execution?

[Cpt.Caveman]

I dont know. I volunteer. Death to all that oppose me you are evil

[W]

Caveman, I see your point- however, as I also understand where SC is coming from, I ask you this-

In terms of "after the fact"- how do we short circuit the chain of retaliation in which the world is caught? Do you have any ideas? "Eradicating evil" sounds great, but is obviously as impractical as doing nothing and hoping we don't get run over by our enemies. The terrorists, however twisted their ideology, honestly thought they were retaliating for something we did to them or their people. We can retaliate forever- look at Israel and Palestine. Neither of them are interested in peace, obviously, though they continually talk about the "peace process".

I think everyone agrees that war is a bad thing- if we are really serious about that, if we don't want our children to be killed in a future war, then I think we will think critically and seriously about how to bring about a world in which there is real security and peace- I think SC is trying to suggest that our relationships in the world are not right and need to be reexamined. This doesn't mean we blame or condemn ourselves, only that we recognize false values and destructive actions and work to correct those. And I don't anyone can make a legitimate case that military action is the wrong thing to do right now given the way the world is. But I do think all the things we have branded inevitable can be changed. But you have to start by realizing there is no blueprint for making this happen. thoughts?

[texplorer]

I think we should just play more Tool and Metallica and everything will be alright.

Nukes, Nukes, get'em, get'em,Nukes, Nukes, get'em, get'em

[Cpt.Caveman]

I like the idea of eradicating the terrorists. I dont like the idea of killing innocent people in Afghanistan. What can you do? I don't want to say it is payback but there are some things that have to be accepted to reach a goal. Relations have been fucked for a long time because US interests change. This is nothing new and perhaps needs serious improvement as noted. Given that I don't see any ideas to solve it by any other means in my firm opinion. Weed those terrorists out and eliminate them. Send a clear message for once. We have never done that firmly in the past. This is different than the middle east. That is not a good comparison..... Like I said we need to retaliate at this point and show that we are going to take care of unfinished business instead of threatening. I think explaining what I think these people understand explains the rest.

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

And, yes, a coalitional attempt to bring bin Laden to justice. This does NOT necessitate war. Intelligence-gathering and international pressure, I believe, can bring this about.

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I volunteer you to go hold hands with the Taliban and sing "Michael Row Your Boat Ashore." and don't forget to teach them the group hug.

How many more jetliners would we let crash into buildings while we wait for "Legal" means to bring in Bin Laden? Whose legal system are we talking about? The ruling party in Afganistan sure arent goin to let Bin Ladin be brought in. International pressure? Like with Sadam, Castro etc. oh wait those guys are still in power.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Good Idea Bronco,

Maybe we should send in hugs for all and incense Kaya boy over there to see what he can do?

[Bronco]

You have a lot of posts cavedude!

I'm not sure why I feel so compelled to defend the (for once) aggressive action of our govt from these fruit cake peacenik commie crapheads, but I think I'm done using my energy for not.

BOMB THE TALITUBBYBAN!!!!! and hit Sadam while you're all the way overthere.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I am creeping up on ole Drul. Kill all!

[W]

CC-

What is the "goal" then? Is it actually "payback" then? Does that have any lasting value if it might actually breed further retaliation and more deaths of your own people, maybe someone you know and love? Are you suggesting, then, that your personal gratification in the form of "payback" is worth the deaths of innocent people? Is that really satisfactory to you? If so, then would you also say that the potential deaths of your own children, or your neighbor's children, would be worth it to achieve the end goal of retaliation?

Or are you truly interested in making the terrorists answer to their actions, and truly interested in not seeing any further violence and killing? Which is it?

[allthumbs]

Caveman, you're right on the money. If the U.S. sits on the fence worrying about collateral damage, nothing's getting accomplished. We need to kick serious devil-dog ass, NOW, or we'll end up in the shitter permanantly. Over and out!

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

I like the idea of eradicating the terrorists. I dont like the idea of killing innocent people in Afghanistan. What can you do? I don't want to say it is payback but there are some things that have to be accepted to reach a goal. Relations have been fucked for a long time because US interests change. This is nothing new and perhaps needs serious improvement as noted. Given that I don't see any ideas to solve it by any other means in my firm opinion. Weed those terrorists out and eliminate them. Send a clear message for once. We have never done that firmly in the past. This is different than the middle east. That is not a good comparison..... Like I said we need to retaliate at this point and show that we are going to take care of unfinished business instead of threatening. I think explaining what I think these people understand explains the rest.

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[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: trask ]

[Cpt.Caveman]

I said kill all terrorists. Under the current situation if we have to do what we are doing now cool. You guys are pathetic

Send over hugs\moondance boy to do your negotiating next time.

[allthumbs]

fuckin' A, Big Dog!

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

I said kill all terrorists. Under the current situation if we have to do what we are doing now cool. You guys are pathetic

Send over hugs\moondance boy to do your negotiating next time.

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[Dan_Petersen]

I think the point that SC misses is that there is a segment of the human race that will kill you because of who you are. We in the West think there must be a reason that these Islamic militants are so mad at us. It’s something we did, and if we simply stop it, once we figure it out, then all will be well. We support governments they don’t like, let’s stop that. We live under a system of laws they don’t like, lets stop that. We use oil and buy it from them, let’s stop that.

An admirable friend of mine spends much of his time traveling the world on missions of mercy for children in need of expensive medical attention. He has traveled to places like Chechen to pick up a child to bring to the US for surgery. Once during his travels he became acquainted with a US family of Croatian heritage. They told him a story that has the makings of parable. They had gone back to visit their relatives in the old country before the strife that began with Milosevic and his ethnic cleansing.

During their visit they met the neighbors of their relatives and were treated cordially. The neighbors were to be on opposing sides of the ethnic strife to come. Some time after their visit they received a letter from their relatives’ neighbors. In it was a picture of their relatives, dead and displayed on the fence-line of their former home. The only other message in the envelope was “Don’t come back, there is nothing for you here”.

How do civilized nations deal with that? What reasoned, logical and caring response is there to that? “I feel your pain”? “I can understand how you must feel”? “Well, you must have had your reasons”? “Let’s talk about it”?

Milosevic, one of the ultimate authors of such tragedies, is now on trial. He is only on trial because he is forced to be, and still he doesn’t recognize the authority of the court. If he had the force of any nation behind him that would harbor him, he would not be in that courtroom. So it is with bin Laden and the Taliban. We cannot bring the force of law to bin Laden without first removing the government that harbors him.

I won’t argue that the struggle is over with the elimination of bin Laden and his terrorist organization. The horrible probability is that conflict will continue between the West and the East. At least it will continue until the lines between East and West are so blurred by economics and communications that “we versus they” becomes “us versus us”. Islamic fundamentalists want no part of that. The dilemma of the spoiled/confused teenager is brought to my mind. Without the Great Satan (or your parents) to blame for all your problems, where then must you turn? The beauty of the teen years is that one grows out of them, but what happens when it is an adult behaving that way?

So. Count me on the side of those who say there is no other rational course to answer the events of September 11 than the course we are taking now.

[allthumbs]

What about this idea?

Kick ass on any and all countries (iraq, iran, palestine, yemen,indonesia, etc...) that harbor and finance terrorists and their activities. I mean really throw political correctness and caution to the wind and lay a good ass whoopin' on em'. Take out all military sites, nuclear-type sites, bio-sites and the like. I doubt that these countries would be so hospitible to the terrorists after that. I also doubt that the free world would give a shit if we did it. It's about time someone went in and cleaned up the middle east...the whole area is a screwed-up barbaric shithole.

[nolanr]

The Israeli/Palestinian SNAFU got brought up in a couple posts, so I have to respond to that. The Palestinians should have their own country, I'll give you that. But any intelligent educated person can deny this fact: the Arab/Islamic/Middle Eastern agenda is to wipe Israel off the face of the map. I saw an interesting little fact, something like 80% of what is historically the Palestinian homeland is in...Jordan. Do they have any conflicts w/ Jordan? Not that I know of. Their beef is strictly w/ Israel, and if you keep slicing off little pieces of Israel and feeding it to Arafat, that will not satisfy him or any other Middle Eastern country.

[dog]

In addition to all of the excellent nonviolent responses I propose that the US weave a giant diversity quilt (100% free range cotton)and deliver it to Osama. Caves can be cold and damp.

[philfort]

quote:

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Originally posted by dog:

In addition to all of the excellent nonviolent responses I propose that the US weave a giant diversity quilt (100% free range cotton)and deliver it to Osama. Caves can be cold and damp.

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LOL!

[Fairweather]

I can't think of any case where I wholeheartedly disagree with our country's foreign policy. Except maybe in Kosovo where we have stepped into a millenium old conflict. We are right on track here. We were ATTACKED and have every right to root out our enemies. If some "innocents" are killed in the process that is regrettable...but not to the point where we should falter in our resolve. After all, did we worry about killing only NAZI government officials when we fire bombed Dresden and killed (by some estimates) 140,000? War DOES solve problems. By today's university-snotnose brat standards, we would have let Hitler continue on in the name of "peace".

(While I support students right to protest, I firmly believe that tax payer supported, tenured professors who encourage subversion should be fired...NOW. We send our kids to universities to be educated, not brainwashed!)

FYI Sex Choc...fighting communism in Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador and everywhere else was, as Ronald Regan said, "a noble cause". I believe our support of Isreal is also a noble cause. They are our friends, and you stand by your friends...something a liberal probably would not understand. Palestine, defined as a country with borders, never existed. Arafat was offered his dream of statehood less than two years ago...he turned it down.

Let's not worry about what "they" think of us. Showing weakness now would be suicide. Let's just do what has to be done.

[Sean_Halling]

Do I support combat operations in Afghanistan? Without a doubt...YES!!! If we do not attack the terrorists and those whom support them...we will just get attacked again and again and the attacks will get worse and worse. Will attacking Afghanistan stop all terrorist attacks? Of course not. It will make it a lot harder for the terrorists though. I don't think we need an all out war however. In fact, since our current military is so weak I am afraid to see them all involved in combat operations because I would hate to see the U.S. embarrssed by their performance. I think we are doing a good job now. The Navy and Air Farce are helping the Northern Alliance do most of the fighting for us. Our special-ops are doing the rest of the work that needs to be done. Throw in some Infantry later on and we will be good. We don't have to fight the whole country...only the terrorist and those who support them. We do need to put the ever-loving fear of God into the terrorists however (the Ranger God that is) and have the Rangers and D-boys (don't forget the SAS)panting down their backs. We need to have these guys so afraid that they can't sleep due to the fear that something (wearing NVG's and carrying an M-4) may come bump in the night. This needs to happen not just in Afghanistan but in every other country these guys hide in as well. To satisfy Gerg..yes I did serve back when the black beret meant something. Many of my buddies are in the various units that are or have already been in Afghanistan. Another point most people forget. Only 10% of the military actually fights. The rest sit back away from the fighting and support the warriors. Most of the remaining 90% of the military can't even shoot their rifle, muck less fight. So far beside pilots the only fighting is being done by about 1/2 % of the military. I don't know what your wife does but unless she is a pilot, in the Infantry, or in Special Ops I wouldn't worry to much. The US Govt. doesnt want the US to see images of support personnel being slaughtered so they won't go in unless the situation is very secure. As far as I'm concerned since I see these regular "troopers" prancing around proudly with black berets on their heads like they are some kind of warrior...let's let them get shot at like a real warrior. Am I all for utilizing maximum violence to destroy the enemy and his equipment and complete the Ranger mission....yes!! Am I for doing it smartly and professionally so as to not embarrass our country...yes. Sorry if I rambled or ranted too much but I just got back from a 10 hour straight drive. I don't mean to offend anyone but Panther...cause I hate him. If anyone else is offended....take it up with me personally...except Panther...screw you. Glad to see "W" is back wasting time on here again. We need to drink some beer and discuss this topic.

[sexual_chocolate]

Rodchester: I think a fair and equally represented world court COULD be something endorsed by all; right now, it's decisions are openly flaunted, and as a result, has no legitimacy or respect. (Remember the Nicaragua war and the world court's rulings? The US openly and arrogantly flaunted them.) I personally feel there to be some potential there. And it has nothing to do with "ethnocentrisity and arrogance." Our CURRENT protocols are guilty of that. Believe me, the people would want a voice, and call for it.

" If you have ever spent any time with the man on the dirt street (Palastinians) the VAST majority say there is only one way, either we kill all of them or they kill all of us. Now I know the Palastinian leadership and thier maketing teams puts it differently, the man on the dirt street with a rock in his hand does not."

It depends on when you talk to the Palestinians. Of course, right now, with passions on fire as they are, people become vengeful and angry on BOTH sides of the (same) coin. So much trust has been destroyed. But during other less inflamed times, the greatest wish by the masses has been peace; same for the Israelis. Of course it's a difficult situation, but we shouldn't abandon the high-road; we KNOW what the results are there. It's like our genetic default switch is almost always set to "violence"; it doesn't fix anything.

BTW, the "dog fart" joke is a standard one, repeated often, yet telling of the amount of insecurity and distrust present. What would you think if the BOMBS falling on your neighbourhoods said "MADE IN THE USA"?

[todd]

i read an entry from cpt. caveman and it made me think: nice concise answer ("bomb the place below sea-level") however, there are many who believe that what is below the surface of afghanistan is the reason for ALL of this chaos. did you know that beneath afghanistan is the largest untapped oil reserve on the planet? it is also almost twice the size of that of saudi arabia. we have been interested in it well before the attacks, with explicit interests beginning in 1994, in setting up a stable government in afghanistan so that we can get our hands on this oil. why do you think we put up with all of the israeli's bullshit? they arent our buddies, you know (if anyone doubts this, read about the MOSSAD). our relationship with israel exists because of our oil interests. that doesnt mean that terrorists have a reason to do what they do, and i agree that bin laden is an asshole, regardless of whether or not he is involved in all of the incidents he is accused of masterminding, because of his blatant misrepresentation of islam. in conclusion, do i think we should fight a war for oil? no. however, do i drive my truck several hours a week simply to pursue my silly habit of climbing? yes. do i have any suggestions to add to this rhetoric? perhaps we should spend more time and resources researching alternative energy sources, instead of creating chaos in the world in our quest for "black gold".

[AlpineK]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

I think he is asking what you (or any others that dislike the current plan) option would be to fix the problem giving details.

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Yeah. I hear everyone who is against the war talk about, "reaching justice," or something like that. I don't know what that means when you are talking about terrorists who are hiding half way around the world in a hostile country.

I watched a good program on Frontline about the US response to terror over the last 25 years. In the vast majority of cases US responses have been weak and inefective. And terrorists have only done worse and worse things to the US.

I think we may create more terrorists through war, but I think being wimpy and letting them get away with their attacks on us will make the situation worse than it is right now.

So how would you either put an end or seriously cut back terror without using the military

In the long run I agree with Tod. We need an energy source that doesn't come from the mid east, but in the near term I see no alternitive but to use military.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: AlpineK ]

[Dwayner]

I've been reading all this armchair quarterbacking, policy speculatin' and so forth on this "climbing" list. As one who has spent the last 20 years as a scholar involved in Near Eastern studies, as one who has spent much time in the Arab world and Israel, and has taught Middle Eastern history at the college level(especially the Arab/Israeli conflict), I can say that the whole situation and possible "solutions" are far more complex than has been suggested on this list although I am impressed with some of the insights. Here's just a couple of things from my perspective: This little operation we're involved in now will ultimately be effective and is perhaps the most justifiable military response since WWII (and the peacenik's - which I tend to be - can ask our pal Nelson Mandela who agrees). Our offense in this case is certainly in our long-term defensive interest. It is also refreshingly different in its multiple approaches to the problem, and its many nods to cultural sensitivities is downright surprising and admirable. This operation is not like anything before (and comparisons to Vietnam are ridiculous). In its aftermath, the world will be readjusted in interesting ways with new relationships (it's already happening now with China, Russia and probably Iran) and although we will probably be compromising some of our values in terms of who we allow to be our "friends", the world will probably be a safer place due to mutual concerns and increased cooperation. And too, moves are being made to get at the root of some of the issues, with both Tony Blair and Dubbya recently and publicly mentioning the need for the establishment of a Palestinian state which would recognize the right of Israel to safely exist. And we can probably protect Saudi Arabia without having troops or airplanes based there. (We can keep them at the ready off-shore on carriers).Some cultural insights: a) hitting back is a reasonable option because these terrorists groups are seeking our weaknesses and they may very well hit again if they are capable and such weaknesses are exposed. b) don't be too intimidated by the "we will kill all Americans and Jews" business. In many cultures in that region of the world, speech is considered a form of action, so there are routine examples of guys spewing out scary threats day after day. Having spoken, they feel as if they are doing something about it. (And such threats have been blatted out for dozens of years; it's nothing new). A good many of these threat-making, effigy-burning protestors can't afford a bus ticket to the next village, nonetheless come over here, knock on your door and do something horrible to you. But there are a several (probably several thousand) capable of "acting out" and they have to be stopped.So sit back and watch the show. There's not a lot you can do about it at the moment and it gets more interesting every day. I'm sure we all agree that we hope this operation is successfully carried out with a minimal loss of innocent lives.So how 'bout some more happy, inane climbing blather? (actually, I prefer the climbing spray because I'm "bombarded" with the international situation for much of the day.)shalom, "Dwayner" P.S. Anybody think of the obvious yet to get this thing over with fast?: SEND IN BIG LOU!!!

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Dwayner ]