Dane Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Sucinct decision making between the two..climbing or heliskiing considering the money involved these days to do either. Having guided both I historically found the heliski crowd expecting more from guides and the guide service and willing to put up with a lot less BS. They generally are very good skiers which also means they generally know something about snow. Tougher crowd than climbers for the guides to keep inline as well. I suspect the refund policy of the climbing concessions on Rainier wouldn't be tolerated by the typical heli ski client. Blog update and Avi warning from NWAC? http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/2010/06/special-avalanche-statement-june-7-2010.html Didn't that horse leave the barn over a week ago? Quick look here at CC.com would have told you that. Be nice if Stepahn would make the effort to update Mike's old blog and keep it up to date as it has been in the past. That was and still is the purpose of the blog and my impression of the NPS's job...to help the public enjoy the park safely. In the past (until Mike was shipped to DC) that blog was the definative info source for all climbing on Rainier. It should be now and is not. The funds of one rescue prevented could support that blog 24/7 for several years. The NPS and Chief climbing ranger Stefan Lofgren ought to get a clue. And while Lofgren is at it he might want to think long and hard just why so many soloist now choose not to bother with a solo permit. Could it be they have recently been made a pain in the ass to get and that is not even considering the time frames they now require. Quote
billcoe Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I'm sure we've all had those moments where we get high up, and go for it anyway even when our brains are saying "You dumb fucking idiot". I have (never as a guide though). More than once I'm embarrassed to admit, on Rainier too. As you get older that cools off and you wise up some usually. If you are reading this and are new and coming out here from Chicago or are not local, hire a guide. It's much cheaper than dieing. In fact, that guide posting up above sounds like he's got his head screwed on right. Its about the process, and you can have a hell of a good time just getting out into the snow and the wild at elevation even if you don't summit as long as you are with good folks. As part of that equation, smart = good. They still haven't released the name of the deceased climber yet. My sympathies are extended - I hope his family and friends find peace. Quote
Dane Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Sadly it sounds like (but not yet confirmed by the NPS) that it may be a climber from Olympia lost in the recent avi. Quote
JoshK Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Having guided both I historically found the heliski crowd expecting more from guides and the guide service and willing to put up with a lot less BS. They generally are very good skiers which also means they generally know something about snow. Tougher crowd than climbers for the guides to keep inline as well. Funny, but most of the people I know who have done heli-skiing personally are what I would consider backcountry noobs. Obviously plenty of experienced people also have the money to afford to heli-ski but most of my backcountry compatriots are stuck with skinning up the hill. On the other hand, I know plenty of people with $$ who have gone heli-skiing but wouldn't know what a skin or touring binding is if it hit them in the face, let alone how to evaluate a slope. Of course, these are also the people that think you actually need a "powder ski" to ski powder. Quote
dberdinka Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 and my impression of the NPS's job...to help the public enjoy the park safely. :lmao: Frequently it seems like they believe their job is to keep you from enjoying the park at all... Quote
CascadeClimber Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 All the chest-beating in this thread should be moved to another thread or deleted. I don't think it has any place in a thread about a missing and now presumed dead climber. Quote
j_b Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Seems I stirred a bit of controversy with my question, so I think it is only fair that I offer my input as a paying customer. I am 100% comfortable paying a guide without a guarantee of a refund nor would I expect one if the trip were cancelled due to weather...even if it were at the trailhead. Climbing is condition dependent. That is part of the game as with most outdoor activites we all enjoy. The difficulty rests with the great popularity of Mt. Rainier with peak baggers, which makes booking in advance with a guide service a quasi necessity for people who want to hire a pro. The best way to avoid cancellation without refund due to conditions is to not be fixated on solely climbing Rainier and to take a chance there may be last minute spots available on a guided climb. If you are flexible, there are always safe objectives to climb in bad weather/avy conditions around the Cascades. Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Do we know the guy who died, he's from Olympia... http://olympia.komonews.com/content/missing-climber-rainier-believed-be-olympia-man Quote
Dane Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 All the chest-beating in this thread should be moved to another thread or deleted. I don't think it has any place in a thread about a missing and now presumed dead climber. Actually chest beating aside, the guide services and how the NPS treats climbers has everything to do with this climber specifically and when he will be identified. So obviously I disagree. Ever wonder exactly why anyone who was capable of climbing Rainier solo would not bother with the madatory registration and again the mandatory solo permit? Good question to ask of the Chief Climbing Ranger on Rainier since he controls the permits and applications process. Better ask why the climbing ranger positions were cut almost in half a couple of years ago and are understaffed now on the same person's watch? Ask yourself why when the conditions were so obviously dangerious on the mtn why the guided parties stopped below the avalanche danger and the "private" parties continued? Read the dates of the most recent posts on the Rainier conditions blog lately? NPS and we as a community are very lucky that only one person died this weekend on Rainier. It is not like anyone had much of an option once the slab cut loose. At that point it is just dumb luck. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the missing climber. But if it my friend or family I'd also want a few answers. Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Do we know the guy who died, he's from Olympia... http://olympia.komonews.com/content/missing-climber-rainier-believed-be-olympia-man All the chest-beating in this thread should be moved to another thread or deleted. I don't think it has any place in a thread about a missing and now presumed dead climber. Actually chest beating aside, blah..blah..blah I guess not. Quote
kukuzka1 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 hey side note, read crossing zion by keith mark johnson [2002?] hillarious and depressing at the same time. but sheds some light on the noble profession of mt guide. sorry to the freinds family of the climber Quote
denalidevo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Somebody's arse is on fire! Actually chest beating aside, the guide services and how the NPS treats climbers has everything to do with this climber specifically and when he will be identified. So obviously I disagree. And it's the guide companies fault that the privates passed them up and continued on how? Now yer being silly. Ask yourself why when the conditions were so obviously dangerious on the mtn why the guided parties stopped below the avalanche danger and the "private" parties continued? Quote
Dane Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 A why don't we know the missing climbers name? "Ever wonder exactly why anyone who was capable of climbing Rainier solo would not bother with the madatory registration and again the mandatory solo permit? Good question to ask of the Chief Climbing Ranger on Rainier since he controls the permits and applications process." Because the solo permits have taken exceedingly long and rather hard to get over the last two years. So many just don't bother and avoid the NPS althogether after trying to get a solo permit now. Avoiding the NPS is easier since they have cut the climbing ranger staff in half in those same two years. So when a climber is lost soloing with no permit the NPS then looks for their car in the parking lot to identify the victim. You guys don't see an issue with the system here? Somebody's arse is on fire! .... And it's the guide companies fault that the privates passed them up and continued on how? Don't jump too quickly to conclusions Dave. You mentioned in a previous post there is a reason that private parties should not be blindly following the guided parties out of Muir. I agree with that. Could it be possible that the lack of NPS climbing rangers since the staff was downsized might have some influence on the private party decision making as could the guide services given the chance to communicate what they are doing. How about the guide service and the NPS do daily updates on the mtn's conditions at the blog? So that incidents like what happened on Wednesday last week were well known? Both the guides services and the NPS climbing rangers make a living off the NP is it asking too much that they make a better effort to open access to the park and offer up the little information they do glean on the mtn in a public forum? I think there are several issues here that could be done better to everyone's benefit. Which is why I am wasting the time to day to make the point. Quote
ivan Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Do we know the guy who died, he's from Olympia... http://olympia.komonews.com/content/missing-climber-rainier-believed-be-olympia-man since the name's not being released, i'd say no funny - a big snowy mtn shits off some snow from one of its shoulders and a troop of hairless monkeys begin flinging poo at each other... Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 funny - a big snowy mtn shits off some snow from one of its shoulders and a troop of hairless monkeys begin flinging poo at each other... For realz. Just as bad as the ass hats who complain about taxpayers paying for S&R and then crying when their car goes over an embankment after a night of Red Label and still want a rescue. Quote
denalidevo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 We don't know the missing climber's name because he bypassed the permitting process and didn't register. I understand (and can share) your frustration with the NPS cuts and paperwork mess, but willfully choosing to bypass the process is your own decision and assumption of the risks involved. Not to mention climbing in blatant disregard to the conditions... A why don't we know the missing climbers name? "Ever wonder exactly why anyone who was capable of climbing Rainier solo would not bother with the madatory registration and again the mandatory solo permit? Good question to ask of the Chief Climbing Ranger on Rainier since he controls the permits and applications process." Because the solo permits have taken exceedingly long and rather hard to get over the last two years. So many just don't bother and avoid the NPS althogether after trying to get a solo permit now. Avoiding the NPS is easier since they have cut the climbing ranger staff in half in those same two years. So when a climber is lost soloing with no permit the NPS then looks for their car in the parking lot to identify the victim. You guys don't see an issue with the system here? Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) We don't know the missing climber's name because he bypassed the permitting process and didn't register. I understand (and can share) your frustration with the NPS cuts and paperwork mess, but willfully choosing to bypass the process is your own decision and assumption of the risks involved. Not to mention climbing in blatant disregard to the conditions... And of course that means you are assuming that he did not tell one of his loved ones and therefore making an ass out of yourself? As a fellow bandit climber, I know that registering for a climb on Rainier is only a NPS liability issue and by not registering I absolve them of liability. I'm not dumb enough not to tell someone where I'm going, what my plans are, and what time to call the sheriff for body retrieval if I'm not back by then. It's pretty pompous of you to assume he is less intelligent. The reason is because his family probably has not been fully notified. Edited June 8, 2010 by Weekend_Climberz Quote
Dane Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Not to mention climbing in blatant disregard to the conditions... I think the point is there were a whole bunch of people (guides, clients, NPS Climbing Rangers and private parties) out on Saturday morning climbing in "blatant disreguard for the conditions". We are lucky there was only one death. How to improve on both those issues is what I am interested in. Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Not to mention climbing in blatant disregard to the conditions... I think the point is there were a whole bunch of people (guides, clients, NPS Climbing Rangers and private parties) out on Saturday morning climbing in "blatant disreguard for the conditions". We are lucky there was only one death. How to improve on both those issues is what I am interested in. Exactly! I haven't been paying close attention for the last two years, but what was the avy report for the weekend? Wasn't there a bunch of fresh snow dumped last week? Why would you want to be under all that fresh snow in unstable conditions in the exact location of the worst avalanche disaster in Mt. Tahoma's history? Anyway, not trying to bash anyone, but this thread should be about honoring the fallen and not bickering about the stupid BS life throws at us. Quote
justinp Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 moderator please move this thread to the columbia gorge forum Quote
JoshK Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 How about the guide service and the NPS do daily updates on the mtn's conditions at the blog? So that incidents like what happened on Wednesday last week were well known? I would find something like this useful, but in this case would it really have mattered? It was easy to come to the conclusion that conditions might not be safe at that elevation on the volcanoes from the recent weather and/or telemetry alone. Sure, a blog like this would be nice *if* they had read one, but the fact that those 11 people were up climbing in that area given the large amount of recent snowfall and warming temperatures leads me to believe they did little, if any, research to begin with. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but there were a lot of red flags visible from one's armchair, let alone if you are sitting on the mountain staring at clear evidence of several feet of new snow. Quote
Dane Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I would find something like this useful, but in this case would it really have mattered? ..... No disagreeemnt about anything you said. But take a look at the blog which had quickly become the focus point for all climbing on Rainier: http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/ and how it is updated now, how useful the info is to climbers and how it was updated say in 2008, only one season ago. Then think of how much more info could easily be there for anyone climbing on Rainier if the NPS and all the guide services contributed on a daily basis. Quote
denalidevo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I wasn't assuming anything. All I was noting was the fact that if he'd registered, we'd know who he is - that's a fact, not an opinion. I made no comment on whether I thought it was good or bad, smart or stupid (that is your reading into my reply), just that he took specific risks because of his choice. I personally don't care if he registered or not. If he chose not to register because of philosophical differences with NPS policy, that's fine w/ me (I can even appreciate why if it was for the reasons Dane has listed) - but he still incurred risk because of it, even if he told someone else, which I hope he did. We don't know the missing climber's name because he bypassed the permitting process and didn't register. I understand (and can share) your frustration with the NPS cuts and paperwork mess, but willfully choosing to bypass the process is your own decision and assumption of the risks involved. Not to mention climbing in blatant disregard to the conditions... And of course that means you are assuming that he did not tell one of his loved ones and therefore making an ass out of yourself? As a fellow bandit climber, I know that registering for a climb on Rainier is only a NPS liability issue and by not registering I absolve them of liability. I'm not dumb enough not to tell someone where I'm going, what my plans are, and what time to call the sheriff for body retrieval if I'm not back by then. It's pretty pompous of you to assume he is less intelligent. The reason is because his family probably has not been fully notified. Quote
summitchaserCJB Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Don't worry about it Devin. It isn't worth it. Quote
denalidevo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Dane, I agree completely - the Rainier Climbing blog is completely useless as of late... HUGE bummer. I would find something like this useful, but in this case would it really have mattered? ..... No disagreeemnt about anything you said. But take a look at the blog which had quickly become the focus point for all climbing on Rainier: http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/ and how it is updated now, how useful the info is to climbers and how it was updated say in 2008, only one season ago. Then think of how much more info could easily be there for anyone climbing on Rainier if the NPS and all the guide services contributed on a daily basis. Quote
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