Sport vs Trad

[dberdinka]

[el jefe]

tvash definitely nails it re: gyms are greener. much smaller carbon footprint for me to hop on my bicycle and cruise down to the portland rock gym with harness and shoes and spend the day climbing than to crank up the gasoline-powered vehicle and head out to beacon. and all those widgets and cams i need to climb at beacon? they require energy be consumed in order for them to be manufactured. the carbon footprint of the sporto with his 12 quickdraws is undoubtedly smaller than that of the tradster with his triple sets of bd cams, etc, plus the quickdraws. the alpinist adds high-tech clothing, ice gear, etc to the equation.

 

all of which points up the absurdity of the "leave no trace ethic" in the first place. if you really want to leave no trace, then you'll just stay at home. i don't want to stay at home, so that means i've decided that i'm going to leave a trace.

 

humans alter their environment, that's what they do (this much should be obvious, especially to an archeologist such as raindawg). it isn't possible to not do what you were designed to do. "leaving no trace" isn't possible for us. if we are going climbing, then we are going to leave a trace. quoting the holy scripture of the 1973 chouniard catalogue or religious leaders like reinhold messner won't change this fact about human activity.

[pope]

To argue for restraint and ground-up are contradictory goals particularly in the northwest where the rock is frequently dirty. You are far more likely to get well placed bolts in the right spots using a top-down method.

 

Applying a top-down method you are far more likely to.....excuse me......what we have as a result of top-down bolting is this:

Try to convince me that rap bolting results in better bolt placement. Every one of these placements is inferior to how they would have been placed by ground-up climbers. Why? Because not one of these bolts belongs on this little top-rope cliff, and ground-up climbers wouldn't have bothered with it.

 

 

 

Basically if you accept some level of bolting you should probably argue for an ethic that minimizes the ultimate number of holes drilled and bolts placed.

 

I am.

[Pete_H]

You should be arguing against about gratuitous over-bolting in of itself, not the methods for drilling bolts. Top down or ground up doesn't matter if the individual putting in the hardware knows what their doing. Why deny a route developer a tool for creating a quality route?

[denalidave]

....It seems a wee bit ironic that the old skool folk always want to tell us all how much better their generation was and how useless the up and coming kids are, now Dawg is telling ....

 

Please provide an example of either Raindawg or Pope promoting their generation as better than any other. I don't think it exists. What we're promoting is a restrained, ground-up approach to bolting that would provide rock climbing enjoyment for many generations, instead of the grid-bolted mess that we currently have. BTW, I started climbing just as rap bolting/sport climbing were being introduced in the U.S. I didn't have any traditions to protect. As a young man, I analyzed the arguments and made a decision. Also, climbers who started the same time as I (or even before) are the ones who adopted and promoted sport climbing and they are largely responsible for the mess we have today. You seem to forget that sport climbing has been here for several decades. I would suggest that many young climbers have no idea that other options exist.

I too started climbing at the beginning of the rap bolting saga (late 80's/early 90's) and climbed with great climbers on both side of the coin. As both sides argued endlessly about why they are so right, I could see there points. I am not going to waste my time digging up any of your old posts, but it sure comes across that you and the Dawg (among others) insist that your ethics are the only option, period. I don't want to see grid bolting at Beacon, or other trad areas, where trad ethic seems to be the norm. Grid bolting at a place like Ozone, however, great. I prefer to always climb trad routes over sport routes but there is a time and place for both. Perhaps, there is a bigger underlying issue with some, or most of the hard core purists? I think it is often all about ego and the more people that are able to go out and climb, the more the ego of the purists is threatened. If it was not the bolting issue, these ego driven purists would find some other excuse to downgrade the accomplishments of the Tommys, Beths & Sharmas rather that admit they are not the best in their field. (IMHO)

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The Anti-Climbing Gym Movement. Sounds like that one's gonna take off pretty shortly.

 

If this board is any indication, there is no real evidence that climbing gyms have anything to do with bolting ethics. Most of the bolters on this board were drilling long before climbing gyms were invented, which was, after all, pretty recent. Gyms are a completely separate environment...there is not bolting involved at all. They simply simulate the crag for the purpose of training. Nothing wrong with training in my book.

 

Then there's the 'big business' conspiracy thing. Um...would you rather that climbing equipment companies lose money and go out of business? Personally, I'd rather Petzl, BD and other faves stay in business and keep offering good gear at very reasonable prices (buy a ski boat and then come back and tell us our sport is expensive). These companies aren't sounding some ultra-high frequency whistle which turns hordes of Prana clad yuppies into consumption zombies...most people buy the gear because, are you sitting down for this? they like the sport. And the irony of Don's latest round of idiocy? Gym climbing requires the least amount of gear of any aspect of our sport. Finally, outdoor companies make the lion's share of their profit on clothing, much of it sported by non-climbers, not gear. Somewhere, right now, in downtown Seattle, an latte sucking, non-climbing tax attorney is sporting a $400 Arcteryx jacket. The injustice! Go get 'em, Don!

 

Gyms have hugely raised the bar for rock climbing: producing a new generation (with some older fuckers in the mix) of very talented climbers. Not hard to figure out why: climbing 4 times a week probably gets you in better shape than climbing 1.

 

In addition, gyms are green. Drive to the crag, or drive down the street? Even a savant like Don can figure that one out.

 

Gyms are also great resource for kids who often can't travel to crags like older folks. Keeps those kids off drugs...um, sort of.

 

And finally, Fred climbs in a gym. So would Gaston, sweaters and all, I'd wager, had they been available during his time.

 

 

Not all folks climbing at the gym ever leave the gym and head out on real rock. I don't know what the actual percentage is, but I bet it is significant.

[el jefe]

pope just don't like them bolts, pete. simple, unreasoning prejudice and closed-mndedness. climbing has to stay the way he says because that's what ethics is. ethics is what pope says. and raindawg. none of the rest of us are authorized to think about any of this because they say so. got it?

[StevenSeagal]

Funny that raindawg often deridingly refers to "Tommy and Beth" when those two have both led 5.14 trad. Somewhere theres this implication that "that stuff was being done back in my day by humble and anonymous hardmen". At the least, the assertion that sport climbing and working routes had nothing to do with the development of the trad .13 and .14 grades...

 

[olyclimber]

that just hate it when anyone has an climbing idol other than themselves.

 

Go Raindawg! Go Pope! YOU GUYS ROCK!!!!!

[orion_sonya]

It seems to me that they are upset because in their view there are too many people playing in the sandbox, so they are pissing on everyone's sandcastle.

[Pete_H]

Funny that raindawg often deridingly refers to "Tommy and Beth" when those two have both led 5.14 trad.

 

But it doesn't count unless they used a hip belay.

[Choada_Boy]

Did you guys know that Pope recently soloed Brass Balls? It's true! I think there's a picture of His Holiness consecrating The Holy Act around here somewhere. I just didn't want this important fact to be lost in all this important conversation.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Funny that raindawg often deridingly refers to "Tommy and Beth" when those two have both led 5.14 trad.

 

But it doesn't count unless they used a hip belay.

 

real hardmen rappel using the Dulfersitz

[denalidave]

Did you guys know that Pope recently soloed Brass Balls? It's true! I think there's a picture of His Holiness consecrating The Holy Act around here somewhere. I just didn't want this important fact to be lost in all this important conversation.

Define recently... judging by the picture I saw posted, this solo was done back when he and Dawg were slogging up-hill (both ways) in 3 feet of snow to get to the (unbolted) crag.

[Kimmo]

bolting news-flash:

 

so i put in a couple bolts for a new line yesterday, oh papa!

 

climbs the first half of an established line, then pulls the roof at a new location. fun slopey-ass huggin and tuggin up to a good bucket, then wicked fun driveby off a crimp to a 1/4 pad three finger crimp, uncoil, right foot up, and JUUUMMMPPP around the corner to a leaning edge. FEEEL THEE FEEVERR!! holeyyyyyy

 

13a to a V10 jump move, then funfun climbing to the anchors.

 

and Donald, even though the first part is 13a, i wouldn't recommend that part to you cuz it's pretty bouldery, and i know yer more into fitness test-pieces.

 

 

ok carry on.

[t_rutl]

 

the funniest shit comes up in these threads!!

[JosephH]

But it doesn't count unless they used a hip belay.

 

All the folks I've taken out to Beacon recently, for whom it was their first time ever climbing, all learned to hip belay. In each case we did the S.E. Face with six nuts, eight trad draws, and one non-locking biner each as a belay device. In the course of each climb they had to hold multiple unexpected falls. Had I attempted to teach them with a belay device of any kind I would have been constantly choked and strangled while trying to climb and the belay wouldn't have been nearly as assured. Belay devices are, and always were, highly over-rated.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Belay devices are, and always were, highly over-rated.

 

How do you do an emergency tie-off with a hip belay? A tandem rappel?

 

oh, yeah, you don't "do" alpine

[Choada_Boy]

Yeah, but passing a knot on a hip belay is EASY.

[JosephH]

In thirty five years of climbing I've never done a tandem rappel or had any need to do one. And tie-off or escape a belay? No more trouble than with a belay device.

[JosephH]

bolting news-flash: 13a to a V10 jump move, then funfun climbing to the anchors.

So do you clip a bolt before every significant move?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Yeah, but passing a knot on a hip belay is EASY.

 

LOL.

 

Hey Joseph, do you make your own harness out of webbing too?

[Kimmo]

bolting news-flash: 13a to a V10 jump move, then funfun climbing to the anchors.

So do you clip a bolt before every significant move?

 

it depends on how you define "significant move", but yeah pretty much. turning the roof's a little funky cuz there's a boulder behind you. the next clip is tough and you definitely don't want to blow it, but overall quite safe and very fun. ready for the masses! hehe

 

btw i'd like to take you up on that offer for checking out your climbs, or whatever you're working on (i think you mentioned something like this?). i have climbed a few heady lines, and i love the process.

[kevbone]

Yeah, but passing a knot on a hip belay is EASY.

 

LOL.

 

Hey Joseph, do you make your own harness out of webbing too?

 

 

No. that would be Jim....and its not webbing, its duct tape. I am not kidding.

[phillygoat]

Yeah, but passing a knot on a hip belay is EASY.

 

LOL.

 

Hey Joseph, do you make your own harness out of webbing too?

 

Cue photos of Joseph's green, Singer-made harness in 3...2...1...