John Frieh Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 I post under my real name; first climb was middle sister (central oregon) @ 14. First rock climb was a top rope at Skinner's Butte in Eugene with some guys from the gear shop I somehow lied my way into employment with @ 15. I turned 30 last December. I've clipped 1000s of bolts since I started climbing... mostly at crags. I cant think of any bolts in WA/OR I’ve clipped that were in the mountains but I have clipped a few in Idaho that were on mountain routes. Their presence didn’t bother me and if they weren’t there I don’t know if I would have finished the route. I don’t know how they were placed and given that it was maybe one or two per route any ways it didn’t bother me. I've place a number of top rope bolts locally (around Portland); I own a power drill that I purchased years ago when I had more disposable income (i.e. was single); it mostly collects dust these days. Never placed a bolt in the mountains. I carried a drill into gunsight 2 times (the long way) with the intent of replacing the bolt on Jim's route but both times was shut down by weather. When I finally managed to climb the route I never saw the bolt but still managed to top out. I dont have a problem with bolts at crags as long as it is done responsible... dont bolt cracks, dont squeeze routes in next to each other and you should never have bolts so close together that one could potentially z clip. That said sport climbing is a fundamental part of how I train for alpine climbing (the type of climbing that interests me the most). Yes one can still be an amazing alpine climber without clipping bolts ever but it takes a lot more time… something I don’t have much of. So I clip bolts… but I also trad climb, solo easy routes, dry tool choss, “ice climb” trees and lift weights occasionally It’s what works for me given how much time I have to devote to climbing. Bottom line: bolts have helped make me be a better than the climber I would be if I never ever clipped them. My biggest concern WRT to bolts is bolts in the mountains. If it was up to me I’d like to see them minimized. I’m okay with bolts protecting something that would make it X rated without but only as a last resort. Bolted mountain routes I hope to do sometime soon include Salish Peak and Infinite Bliss; the first one because it looks rad (I’ve walked under it) and the second because climbers I respect and value their opinion told me it was fun… the exact reason I climb! For fun! That’s where I stand. I challenge each of you to do the same. PS: and I think we as PNW climbers have much much bigger things to worry about than bolts Quote
tanstaafl Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Not that I can climb for shit, but I've never carried any chalk. so, what, yer gonna figure out the answer to a rydberg formula whilst climbing W/O having to write nothing down?!? sport vs trad is like fake tits vs regular tits - does it really matter that much so long as yer balls deep in the whore? Dear Partner, Just to let you know I have screwed a dame that weighs 300 lbs. Your pal, Jim That was a *great* story, but I thought USFS 1919: The Ranger, the Cook, and a Hole in the Sky was even better. Quote
olyclimber Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The above is an example of a nuanced and well thought out position on bolts. this is way different than the polemic discussions that usually seem to happen here that basically end up being "bolts are bad" accompanied by a picture of a clown VS. people just picking at the scab or trying unsuccessfully to inject some sort of agreeable compromise to the situation. would also agree that there are bigger fish to fry. but then, for some, that is the only fish they seem interested in. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The problem with the entire” trad” v Sport thing is that the words are (intentionally) not defined. For the most part a divide is created that serves a hidden agenda. “Trad free climbing ” originally meant to start at the bottom work your way up placing gear (including bolts) and lowering when you fell. No preinspection, no rap placed gear. Some of the major proponents of” trad” ethic often used bolts – Tom Higgens. Usually bolts were kept to a minimum but that was always a grey area and not a defining characteristic of the” trad” ethic. “Trad” existed before the era of “clean” climbing. Most people on cc.com twist” trad” out of its historical meaning. I climb with a bunch of people who when they climb “sport” routes if they fall they lower and pull rope because they are tradsters but are they sporters too? Fuck definitions those who use them in debates like this are usually up to no good. Most often their desire is to either elevate their own reputation or to denigrate someone elses. SexyC it's not my cliff to reveal. Quote
Kimmo Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 SexyC it's not my cliff to reveal. damns.... looks nasonish. Quote
RuMR Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The problem with the entire” trad” v Sport thing is that the words are (intentionally) not defined. For the most part a divide is created that serves a hidden agenda. “Trad free climbing ” originally meant to start at the bottom work your way up placing gear (including bolts) and lowering when you fell. No preinspection, no rap placed gear. Some of the major proponents of” trad” ethic often used bolts – Tom Higgens. Usually bolts were kept to a minimum but that was always a grey area and not a defining characteristic of the” trad” ethic. “Trad” existed before the era of “clean” climbing. Most people on cc.com twist” trad” out of its historical meaning. I climb with a bunch of people who when they climb “sport” routes if they fall they lower and pull rope because they are tradsters but are they sporters too? Fuck definitions those who use them in debates like this are usually up to no good. Most often their desire is to either elevate their own reputation or to denigrate someone elses. SexyC it's not my cliff to reveal. a good part of the reason why bolts were kept to a minimum is because it was a royal pain in the ass to drill by hand and most FA's said "fuck this, i'm climbing"... Quote
Kimmo Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 But real climbing has now been relegated to the shadows where it can be ignored or referenced as an peculiar exception (that only guys like John Frieh do). Why? So the culture of the majority (sport climbers) could co-op the very term 'climbing' and drop the prefix 'sport'. In the end words and semantics really do tell the real story of decline. But if the real story were present in our vernacular than the climbing done by the overwhelming majority of today's climbers would be called 'entertainment climbing'. this is where you lose me, when you start to define what "climbing" is. "real" climbing? "entertainment" climbing? seems silly to me. i'll just go "climbing" and let others worry about labeling it. Quote
RuMR Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 so ummmm this pic: where izzit? public info or keepin it lowlow? looks maybe really good? bellingham... Quote
JosephH Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The problem with the entire” trad” v Sport thing is that the words are (intentionally) not defined. For the most part a divide is created that serves a hidden agenda. “Trad free climbing ” originally meant to start at the bottom work your way up placing gear (including bolts) and lowering when you fell. No preinspection, no rap placed gear. Some of the major proponents of” trad” ethic often used bolts – Tom Higgens. Usually bolts were kept to a minimum but that was always a grey area and not a defining characteristic of the” trad” ethic. “Trad” existed before the era of “clean” climbing. Most people on cc.com twist” trad” out of its historical meaning. I climb with a bunch of people who when they climb “sport” routes if they fall they lower and pull rope because they are tradsters but are they sporters too? Fuck definitions those who use them in debates like this are usually up to no good. Most often their desire is to either elevate their own reputation or to denigrate someone elses. You're talking about various subtopics which have always generated discussion on their own. And you're right the words have generational context relative decade by decade such as trad climbing existed before clean climbing. But make no mistake about it - in the era of clean climbing, the use of fixed pro (bolts and pins) in free climbing was extremely extremely judicious and the few slab or face climbs that were wholly bolted had bolt spacing that would be deemed X-rated by today's sport climbing standards and proponents. As for the tactics used in climbing - Off can tell you as well as I that dogging was as big an argument as the bolts that made it possible. For many of us dogging was far more the insult than the bolts. So when you see old guys insist on being lowered after a fall and then pull the rope for another try, that's because that was the prevailing ethic of the day. Such 'crossover' use of tactics is still germane today but in the reverse scenario - people sport climbing on gear, or what I call "sprad" climbing - which is folks dogging their way up trad climbs. This is incredibly common these days and is always a drag to see both for ethical concerns, but far more for the fact it is an incredibly dangerous habit to get into along with just being a lousy approach to trad climbing. It's also one generating a lot of decking accidents of late. Trad placements aren't bolts and shouldn't be treated like they are - any time you weight or fall on a piece of gear it's imperative you check and possibly reset it if you intend to climb above it again. Quote
RuMR Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 why is it a "drag"? Why do you care what some monkey shit does with his gear? How is it any different than aiding? Generating a lot of decking accidents of late? Like when? Kinda bs... "anytime you weight of fall on a piece of gear...again"...so what...that's plain common sense and applies whether you are aiding, "sprading", ground upping and lobbing off/lowering", etc. etc. --> red herring You are a strange fellow...its almost like you're getting bent when someone succeeds with different tactics than yours...why do you care???????? For that matter, your views are why TR-ing is dissed sooo much...'cuz its all pussy-like according to you...seriously, what's the difference between hanging on a TR and hanging on a piece of gear?? Its all the same "ethically" in your world... you still haven't answered my question about euro limey centers...but whatever... Quote
skykilo Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Joseph, do you alpine climb? When I find myself in wild country on something where the climbing takes most of the day, I could really give a shit about ever pulling the rope. Ideally I'd always fire any pitch I lead in good form, neither hanging nor falling nor pulling gear, but if those things happen, so be it. The goal is to climb the mountain by a stimulating route; pulling the rope would be tossing the baby with the bathwater. Would you feel bad about using a tree? 'Cuz I'd monkey up a tree in a heartbeat to avoid some slabby moves that were me. Where is the nuance in your position? Why do so many climbers suck so bad at skiing? Why do so many skiers show no interest in climbing? Mother, mother, mother... what's going on? -A confused skier Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Joseph, do you alpine climb? When I find myself in wild country on something where the climbing takes most of the day, I could really give a shit about ever pulling the rope. Ideally I'd always fire any pitch I lead in good form, neither hanging nor falling nor pulling gear, but if those things happen, so be it. The goal is to climb the mountain by a stimulating route; pulling the rope would be tossing the baby with the bathwater. Would you feel bad about using a tree? 'Cuz I'd monkey up a tree in a heartbeat to avoid some slabby moves that were me. Where is the nuance in your position? Why do so many climbers suck so bad at skiing? Why do so many skiers show no interest in climbing? Mother, mother, mother... what's going on? -A confused skier don't forget veggie belays. when I see someone grab a branch while ascending class 4 mudslopes with heather and loose rock, I think "what a drag". never mind the ethical considerations Quote
JosephH Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 why is it a "drag"? Because it's an incredibly dangerous habit - gear placements aren't bolts. The plain fact is that "plain common sense" seems to be evading tones of crossover folks these days and by that I mean they're way too busy working the moves to be bothered with rechecking the placement after every go at the move. I've been seeing progessively more and more accidents as a result of this over the past ten years. Quote
RuMR Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 You must suck at gear... I have yet to pull a piece of gear i've placed that i've considered solid. Can you give me one accident where this has happened? so far none of my friends, or myself have decked from hanging on gear. This is going on now for 24+ years... generally, climbers have a good sense of when the gear is shite and *might* hold a fall and don't fall/weight it if its suspect and when the gear is bomber, well, shit half the time i consider it better than a bolt that i don't know the history of... I've climbed on a lotta different types of rock and haven't witnessed this *trend* of yours personally...Have i been skirting death all these years???????? SHUDDER...anyone wanna buy some used, yet deadly, gear? you are a funny old man... Quote
JosephH Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Kimmo - I don't use chalk for a variety of reasons - first, it's a disgusting feeling on my hands; second I look like the Pillsbury Doughboy about five minutes after being handed one; and third is what it does relative to the creative process of climbing. Back in bumfuck SoIll where we climbed the rock had no cracks and no edges - just isolated pockets, horns, and ribs. Half of the challenge of climbing for us was simply seeing a climb, the rest of the challenge was working out the sequence, and the least of it was climbing it once you did. We were way into the 'puzzle' aspect of it which is instantly destroyed the moment you apply chalk. Beyond that we saw the affect it had on the Eldo locals when we'd go visit there - most wouldn't climb anything that didn't have chalk on it, whereas everything we touched back home was an FA and so we were always straying from dotted line which the locals hated. The 'follow the yellow brick road' and 'move like I move' mentality chalk fosters and perpetuates has always struck me as sad at best. That, and because 98% of the time it's completely unnecessary no matter what your head is screaming at you... Skykilo - Alpine climbing by and large is alpine climbing, mountaineering is mountaineering; the intent, objective, and game is different. Quote
John Frieh Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 why is it a "drag"? Because it's an incredibly dangerous habit - gear placements aren't bolts. The plain fact is that "plain common sense" seems to be evading tones of crossover folks these days and by that I mean they're way too busy working the moves to be bothered with rechecking the placement after every go at the move. I've been seeing progessively more and more accidents as a result of this over the past ten years. What is dangerous and what is ethical/good style are two different discussions. Dont bad mouth someone else's style behind a guise of "it's dangerous" We all make seperate safety decisions that we alone have to be responsible for Quote
RuMR Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 why is it a "drag"? Because it's an incredibly dangerous habit - gear placements aren't bolts. The plain fact is that "plain common sense" seems to be evading tones of crossover folks these days and by that I mean they're way too busy working the moves to be bothered with rechecking the placement after every go at the move. I've been seeing progessively more and more accidents as a result of this over the past ten years. What is dangerous and what is ethical/good style are two different discussions. Dont bad mouth someone else's style behind a guise of "it's dangerous" We all make seperate safety decisions that we alone have to be responsible for that was my point about calling it a red herring... Quote
rob Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 At least we can rest assured that you guys are on top of the hard questions of our time! another few pages and I bet we come to consensus! Quote
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