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billcoe

Death due to rope failure

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Oh... is that all, bill?

 

Well, no. Here's the late Brutus of Wydes climbing disclaimer I should Vulcan mind meld the two. Don't forget to have fun!

 

 

"WARNING!!

 

ALL INDIVIDUALS USING, REFERRING TO, TALKING ABOUT, OR THINKING ABOUT THIS TOPO MUST READ THIS!!!

 

This inaccurate topo is based on dim recollections, half-baked guesses, and outright lies. In NO WAY does it tell the full story. You would probably be better off just trying to find your own way up the mountain, than you would be if you used this topo. But that statement in no way implies that I am in any way responsible if you don't use the topo, and something bad happens anyway.

 

Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way I can list them all here. Read the books.

 

The area depicted by this topo is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous, hungry or carriers of dread diseases. These may include poisonous amphibians, reptiles, and insects; insects to which you have allergies, or whose multiple stings can cause anaphylactic shock; mammals which may include skunks, badgers, marmots, lions, tigers, and bears; predatory birds, and all other manner of beasts. Plants can be poisonous as well, and even when not poisonous, can inflict serious injury like a sharp stick in the eye. This topo, and the author of this topo, will not do anything to protect you from any of this. I do not inspect, supervise or maintain the ground, rocks, cliffs, wildlife, vegetation or other features, natural or otherwise.

Real dangers are present even on approach trails. Trails are not sidewalks, and folks have died and been seriously injured even on sidewalks when they have tripped on cracked concrete, plunged into meter boxes with missing covers, been mugged, hit by cars, had pianos fall on them... Trails can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as bridges, steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. I don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. Some trails in the area are only maintained by Nelson Bighorn Sheep, who have little regard for human life or human safety, or any humans whatsoever. In summary, trails are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away.

 

Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. You probably WILL get lost. The chances of getting lost multiply geometrically after the sun goes down, due to poor visibility. The sun goes down at least once a day in this area. Not to say that you won't get lost during daylight hours. In either event, carry a flashlight, extra bulb and batteries, compass, GPS, altimeter, cellular phone, food, water, matches and first aid supplies at all times. My advising you of this does not mean there are not other things you should be carrying. Carry them all as well, and know how to use them. I am not responsible for the consequences if you fail to heed this advice. In fact, I am not responsible for the consequences even if you DO heed this advice and, for example, end up in an unplanned bivy because you were carrying too much g*dd@mnstuff, stumble into the bivy fire at 2 am when you get up to take a p!ss, and severely burn the flesh on your hands. You have only yourself to blame, so leave me out of it.

 

Rocks and other objects can, and probably will, fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. If you don't believe me check out the talus slopes at the base of some of the rock walls. They didn't just grow there. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. As a matter of fact, approaching the rock formations is not advised. That is pretty stupid too. But if you DO choose to risk your worthless scrawny neck by going near rocks, shoulder pads, knee pads, elbow pads, athletic cups and supporters and other body armor may be handy as well. These items can be purchased or rented from mountaineering shops and athletic supply stores. They won't save you if you get hit by or scrape against something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you leave nothing but a grease spot. Don't think it can't happen. It does, and it probably will.

 

Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, dehydration, frostbite, lightning, ice and snow, runoff from rainstorms, flashfloods, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap, can drown you if you're looking up into the sky with your mouth open, and vastly decreases traction on pavement. Snow is even worse, the hazards ranging from snowball fight injuries to avalanches.

If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing and are the most experienced and safest climber the world has ever known, you are still making a terrible mistake: lots of things can and do go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time.

 

Furthermore, scrambling amongst the huge boulders in this canyon, even without exposure of high places, can result in serious physical and/or emotional injury, or death.

This area, and this route, are not provided with any rangers or security personnel on any regular basis. The other people in the area, including other visitors, USFS employees, foreign agents, biologists and nature freaks, and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, a religious fanatic, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with deadly weapons and ready to use them. I'm not going to do anything about that. I refuse to take responsibility.

 

Excessive consumption of alcohol, use of prescription drugs, over-the-counter medications, and/or legal or illegal controlled substances while frequenting this area can and probably will affect your mental state, alertness, and decision-making abilities, and could make an already dangerous situation even worse. Even abstinence won't protect you from the actions of others under the influence of such substances. Tough luck. Not my fault.

 

The driveways, freeways, highways, streets, alleys, back roads and unimproved 4WD tracks leading to this area kill hundreds of folks each year. Many of these fatalities are folks who aren't even on their way to this canyon, who in fact have never heard of this canyon, but are simply innocent victims. Not so you. You have been warned. You could get killed driving to the trailhead. Wearing your seatbelt tightly fastened with the lap belt low across your waist improves your chances of survival, in most cases (except that one steep section of road) but does not and cannot guarantee your safety. You might die before ever stepping out of your vehicle at the trailhead, or on the way home. It can happen any time. If you think you are immune from this kind of thing, you're fooling yourself.

 

This is not a sterile environment. Bacteria, viruses, protozoa, protoviruses, fungi and other forms of life and protolife which may or may not be currently included in either the plant or animal kingdom are capable of causing you serious bodily harm, illness, or death. These kinds of biological agents are both endemic in the area or present in the plant and animal populations; and are also capable of being carried or transmitted by your climbing partners and traveling companions. I'm not going to take responsibility for this, either. My advice for you to treat drinking water, wash your hands before and after going to the bathroom and before eating, and to not indulge in unprotected sex in this area, in no way obligates me to be responsible for the consequences if you fail to do so, nor does it mean that even if you DO take these precautions and something happens anyway, that I am to blame. Not so. Forget it. Nada. Negativo.

 

If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. And the longer you climb the greater your risk of bad luck, which may or may not be compounded by hubris, catching up to you. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, and equipped or not, though training, experience and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. I do not provide supervision or instruction. I am not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as I know, any of them can and probably will suddenly fail without warning and send you plunging to your death with a bloodcurdling scream, likely pulling your partner to his or her doom as well. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of inobvious, extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere in the canyon. I probably don't know about any specific hazard, but even if I do, don't expect this topo or its author to try to warn you. You're on your own.

 

Furthermore, the fact that I'm not trying to stop you from being in this area in no way implies, nor should it be inferred, that I approve, recommend, advocate, or otherwise in any way affirm that such action on your part is anything but incredibly stupid.

 

Rescue services are not provided by anyone near this climb, and may not be available quickly or at all. In fact, if anything really serious happens to you in this area, you'll probably be dead before word ever reaches civilization. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. They probably won't be. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they will probably be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. I assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks, and don't blame me when it goes bad and you end up getting yourself sued in the process.

 

By using, or even just looking at this topo, you are agreeing that I owe you no duty of care or any other duty, you agree to release me, my relatives, heirs, dependents, and anyone else I care to name, now and forevermore, from any and all claims of liability, even though my actions may be grossly negligent and/or be construed as reckless endangerment, manslaughter, or other misconduct up to and including premeditated murder. By consulting this topo, you agree to waive forever any rights that you, your partners, dependents, heirs, inlaws, and others known or unknown to you may have, to legal compensation resulting from anything that has anything to do with this topo, including but in no way limited to paper cuts from the edge of the topo itself. If you try to sue me in spite of all this, you agree to pay my lawyers fees regardless of the outcome of the suit, and you expressly agree to re-reimburse me for any loss or injury, be it financial, physical, emotional, or imagined, which I may experience as a result of such lawsuit.

 

I promise you nothing. I do not and will not even try to keep the area safe for any purpose. The area is NOT safe for any purpose. This is no joke. I won't even try to warn about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether I know about it or not. If I do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean I will try to warn you about anything else. If I do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, I may not try to correct any others, and I may actually make matters worse! I may have done things in the area that are unwise and dangerous. I probably did, but I don't remember. Sorry, I'm neither competent nor responsible. The topo gives you bad advice. Don't listen. Or do listen. It's your choice, but you face the consequences either way, whatever they may be.

 

In short, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you, or your heirs, relatives, dependents or others known or unknown to you; your partner or your partners heirs, relatives, dependents, or others known or unknown to your partner, are the slimy kind of lawyer-touting parasites who would try to sue the author of a topo, If you can't take responsibility for your own decisions, knowledge, routefinding and plain dumb luck, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay far far away from this route and this canyon, give up climbing, and die of some completely natural, painful, and slowly progressive disease.

 

Thank you, climb safe, and have fun!

 

END of Disclaimer "

 

ps, I think he forgot the part about the rope! You're an OK guy Drew, sometimes a tad snarky, so don't forget to tag a happy face on the end of your mean sounding posts or it comes off wrong to those who don't know you.

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I had a rope fail once. It's not MY fault I didn't put any pro in, the damn thing still let me hit the ground. I bet a thicker rope would have done the trick.

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Bill, I usually read your posts. I bet it was actually funny, but could you do a Cliff Notes version for a lazy fucker like me? Just include the real gems. Thanks.

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Bill, I usually read your posts. I bet it was actually funny, but could you do a Cliff Notes version for a lazy fucker like me? Just include the real gems. Thanks.

Nah, popped my finger playing basketball in the warehouse an hour ago - but I have what the recipient just deemed a "Tolstoy novel" going on last weekends first ascent which I typed earlier. I can forward it to you, but the recipient already asked if I could shorten it. I tried and came up with "We came, we climbed", but still feel I could pare down some of those 4 words. So for now, it's "We came, we climbed". ...You're welcome.

 

 

 

Dude! I'm finally not a noob! Only took 1 year, 2 months, and a few days. Who wants to celebrate?

 

Shhhh, not so Damn loud OK, these moderators are vindictive sons o bitches, they can make you a perma-nOOb on a whim! I've seen worse happen, so don't crow too loudly...it's a hubris thing, they'd like nothing more than to slam some random noob as if it's a inner city drive by shooting. I'll go ahead anyway and open a bottle wine though in celebration on the off chance it sticks. Wheres Sobo? I like virtual drinking with him.

 

:brew: Toast "TO BRUTUS"

 

In case I don't talk to you on the phone thanks for the work!

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Shhhh, not so Damn loud OK, these moderators are vindictive sons o bitches, they can make you a perma-nOOb on a whim! I've seen worse happen, so don't crow too loudly...it's a hubris thing, they'd like nothing more than to slam some random noob as if it's a inner city drive by shooting. I'll go ahead anyway and open a bottle wine though in celebration on the off chance it sticks. Wheres Sobo? I like virtual drinking with him.

 

:brew: Toast "TO BRUTUS"

 

In case I don't talk to you on the phone thanks for the work!

 

:brew: Cheers. I appreciate you sending the work my way. And I'll drink to pride in perma-noob status. I can only aspire to a post so high in life.

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I'll drink to pride in perma-noob status. I can only aspire to a post so high in life.

nonsense - you gonna be out at the big-b aiding w/ the brethern in the dank 2morrow? :)

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I'll drink to pride in perma-noob status. I can only aspire to a post so high in life.

nonsense - you gonna be out at the big-b aiding w/ the brethern in the dank 2morrow? :)

That sounds tempting, what you looking to get on? :poke:

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I'll drink to pride in perma-noob status. I can only aspire to a post so high in life.

nonsense - you gonna be out at the big-b aiding w/ the brethern in the dank 2morrow? :)

That sounds tempting, what you looking to get on? :poke:

it'll be dank stupid, so aiding of course - pipeline to silver crow or freefirsum to pipeline headwall w/ hopefully a desert slice of se corner in the coursing rain - will be there w/ b-day boy miker, kenny should be there afternoonish and who the fuck else knows - show up w/ some jugs at least and have a ride.

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kenny should be there afternoonish and who the fuck else knows - show up w/ some jugs at least and have a ride.

 

I'll be there too with kenny... already got the rain gear and jugs packed

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interesting thread on rockclimbing

 

apparently Seneca has sharp edges

 

it was the 3rd pitch on a brand new rope.

 

new ropes don't just snap, people are guessing it was cut. The belayer said he never felt the fall come on the rope.

 

However a guide went up the next day and didn't think there was any sharp edges that could have cut the rope in the immediate vicinity of the fall.

 

that said no-one has mentioned edge ropes. I got my first Stratos (Edelweiss) for the Salathe in '99. Just bought another one last month, it's called the "Sharp" now. Only available in a 10.5 single or 9 double. It's got a monofilament middle layer that slips over sharp edges. It's no guarantee but better protection than a non-edge rope.

 

Apparently though UIAA is not conducting edge tests anymore, some problem with repeatability.

 

then someone comes on the thread and says Bluewater ropes cut easier.

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Oh... is that all, bill?

 

Well, no. Here's the late Brutus of Wydes climbing disclaimer I should Vulcan mind meld the two. Don't forget to have fun!

 

 

"WARNING!!

 

ALL INDIVIDUALS USING, REFERRING TO, TALKING ABOUT, OR THINKING ABOUT THIS TOPO MUST READ THIS!!!

 

This inaccurate topo is based on dim recollections, half-baked guesses, and outright lies. In NO WAY does it tell the full story. You would probably be better off just trying to find your own way up the mountain, than you would be if you used this topo. But that statement in no way implies that I am in any way responsible if you don't use the topo, and something bad happens anyway.

 

Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way I can list them all here. Read the books.

 

The area depicted by this topo is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous, hungry or carriers of dread diseases. These may include poisonous amphibians, reptiles, and insects; insects to which you have allergies, or whose multiple stings can cause anaphylactic shock; mammals which may include skunks, badgers, marmots, lions, tigers, and bears; predatory birds, and all other manner of beasts. Plants can be poisonous as well, and even when not poisonous, can inflict serious injury like a sharp stick in the eye. This topo, and the author of this topo, will not do anything to protect you from any of this. I do not inspect, supervise or maintain the ground, rocks, cliffs, wildlife, vegetation or other features, natural or otherwise.

Real dangers are present even on approach trails. Trails are not sidewalks, and folks have died and been seriously injured even on sidewalks when they have tripped on cracked concrete, plunged into meter boxes with missing covers, been mugged, hit by cars, had pianos fall on them... Trails can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as bridges, steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. I don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. Some trails in the area are only maintained by Nelson Bighorn Sheep, who have little regard for human life or human safety, or any humans whatsoever. In summary, trails are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away.

 

Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. You probably WILL get lost. The chances of getting lost multiply geometrically after the sun goes down, due to poor visibility. The sun goes down at least once a day in this area. Not to say that you won't get lost during daylight hours. In either event, carry a flashlight, extra bulb and batteries, compass, GPS, altimeter, cellular phone, food, water, matches and first aid supplies at all times. My advising you of this does not mean there are not other things you should be carrying. Carry them all as well, and know how to use them. I am not responsible for the consequences if you fail to heed this advice. In fact, I am not responsible for the consequences even if you DO heed this advice and, for example, end up in an unplanned bivy because you were carrying too much g*dd@mnstuff, stumble into the bivy fire at 2 am when you get up to take a p!ss, and severely burn the flesh on your hands. You have only yourself to blame, so leave me out of it.

 

Rocks and other objects can, and probably will, fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. If you don't believe me check out the talus slopes at the base of some of the rock walls. They didn't just grow there. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. As a matter of fact, approaching the rock formations is not advised. That is pretty stupid too. But if you DO choose to risk your worthless scrawny neck by going near rocks, shoulder pads, knee pads, elbow pads, athletic cups and supporters and other body armor may be handy as well. These items can be purchased or rented from mountaineering shops and athletic supply stores. They won't save you if you get hit by or scrape against something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you leave nothing but a grease spot. Don't think it can't happen. It does, and it probably will.

 

Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, dehydration, frostbite, lightning, ice and snow, runoff from rainstorms, flashfloods, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap, can drown you if you're looking up into the sky with your mouth open, and vastly decreases traction on pavement. Snow is even worse, the hazards ranging from snowball fight injuries to avalanches.

If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing and are the most experienced and safest climber the world has ever known, you are still making a terrible mistake: lots of things can and do go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time.

 

Furthermore, scrambling amongst the huge boulders in this canyon, even without exposure of high places, can result in serious physical and/or emotional injury, or death.

This area, and this route, are not provided with any rangers or security personnel on any regular basis. The other people in the area, including other visitors, USFS employees, foreign agents, biologists and nature freaks, and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, a religious fanatic, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with deadly weapons and ready to use them. I'm not going to do anything about that. I refuse to take responsibility.

 

Excessive consumption of alcohol, use of prescription drugs, over-the-counter medications, and/or legal or illegal controlled substances while frequenting this area can and probably will affect your mental state, alertness, and decision-making abilities, and could make an already dangerous situation even worse. Even abstinence won't protect you from the actions of others under the influence of such substances. Tough luck. Not my fault.

 

The driveways, freeways, highways, streets, alleys, back roads and unimproved 4WD tracks leading to this area kill hundreds of folks each year. Many of these fatalities are folks who aren't even on their way to this canyon, who in fact have never heard of this canyon, but are simply innocent victims. Not so you. You have been warned. You could get killed driving to the trailhead. Wearing your seatbelt tightly fastened with the lap belt low across your waist improves your chances of survival, in most cases (except that one steep section of road) but does not and cannot guarantee your safety. You might die before ever stepping out of your vehicle at the trailhead, or on the way home. It can happen any time. If you think you are immune from this kind of thing, you're fooling yourself.

 

This is not a sterile environment. Bacteria, viruses, protozoa, protoviruses, fungi and other forms of life and protolife which may or may not be currently included in either the plant or animal kingdom are capable of causing you serious bodily harm, illness, or death. These kinds of biological agents are both endemic in the area or present in the plant and animal populations; and are also capable of being carried or transmitted by your climbing partners and traveling companions. I'm not going to take responsibility for this, either. My advice for you to treat drinking water, wash your hands before and after going to the bathroom and before eating, and to not indulge in unprotected sex in this area, in no way obligates me to be responsible for the consequences if you fail to do so, nor does it mean that even if you DO take these precautions and something happens anyway, that I am to blame. Not so. Forget it. Nada. Negativo.

 

If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. And the longer you climb the greater your risk of bad luck, which may or may not be compounded by hubris, catching up to you. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, and equipped or not, though training, experience and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. I do not provide supervision or instruction. I am not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as I know, any of them can and probably will suddenly fail without warning and send you plunging to your death with a bloodcurdling scream, likely pulling your partner to his or her doom as well. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of inobvious, extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere in the canyon. I probably don't know about any specific hazard, but even if I do, don't expect this topo or its author to try to warn you. You're on your own.

 

Furthermore, the fact that I'm not trying to stop you from being in this area in no way implies, nor should it be inferred, that I approve, recommend, advocate, or otherwise in any way affirm that such action on your part is anything but incredibly stupid.

 

Rescue services are not provided by anyone near this climb, and may not be available quickly or at all. In fact, if anything really serious happens to you in this area, you'll probably be dead before word ever reaches civilization. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. They probably won't be. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they will probably be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. I assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks, and don't blame me when it goes bad and you end up getting yourself sued in the process.

 

By using, or even just looking at this topo, you are agreeing that I owe you no duty of care or any other duty, you agree to release me, my relatives, heirs, dependents, and anyone else I care to name, now and forevermore, from any and all claims of liability, even though my actions may be grossly negligent and/or be construed as reckless endangerment, manslaughter, or other misconduct up to and including premeditated murder. By consulting this topo, you agree to waive forever any rights that you, your partners, dependents, heirs, inlaws, and others known or unknown to you may have, to legal compensation resulting from anything that has anything to do with this topo, including but in no way limited to paper cuts from the edge of the topo itself. If you try to sue me in spite of all this, you agree to pay my lawyers fees regardless of the outcome of the suit, and you expressly agree to re-reimburse me for any loss or injury, be it financial, physical, emotional, or imagined, which I may experience as a result of such lawsuit.

 

I promise you nothing. I do not and will not even try to keep the area safe for any purpose. The area is NOT safe for any purpose. This is no joke. I won't even try to warn about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether I know about it or not. If I do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean I will try to warn you about anything else. If I do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, I may not try to correct any others, and I may actually make matters worse! I may have done things in the area that are unwise and dangerous. I probably did, but I don't remember. Sorry, I'm neither competent nor responsible. The topo gives you bad advice. Don't listen. Or do listen. It's your choice, but you face the consequences either way, whatever they may be.

 

In short, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you, or your heirs, relatives, dependents or others known or unknown to you; your partner or your partners heirs, relatives, dependents, or others known or unknown to your partner, are the slimy kind of lawyer-touting parasites who would try to sue the author of a topo, If you can't take responsibility for your own decisions, knowledge, routefinding and plain dumb luck, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay far far away from this route and this canyon, give up climbing, and die of some completely natural, painful, and slowly progressive disease.

 

Thank you, climb safe, and have fun!

 

END of Disclaimer "

 

ps, I think he forgot the part about the rope! You're an OK guy Drew, sometimes a tad snarky, so don't forget to tag a happy face on the end of your mean sounding posts or it comes off wrong to those who don't know you.

 

:argue: Ok I used my morning coffee time to read this whole thing. It was quite funny. I didn't bother to read the first long one you posted as it didn't look as funny (but it might be). I might need a bigger coffee cup to read that one though. Thanks for the entertainment, your bill is being written up.

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:argue: Ok I used my morning coffee time to read this whole thing.

 

Great, can you sum it up for Kevbone, he say's it's too many words for him. PS, send him the bill you are mentioning. LOL!

 

pss, yesterday: "we came, we climbed". Again! You should have been there ya lazy puss. Last of the great summer weather and it was clear and sunny all day! Suppose to be raining all day today....although looking out the window, I can see some weatherfolks have miss called that again.

_________________________________________________________________

 

Phil Tatman.....hmmm, is that your real name or a clever, well thought out screenname/avatar Phil?

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Oh... is that all, bill?

 

Well, no. Here's the late Brutus of Wydes climbing disclaimer I should Vulcan mind meld the two. Don't forget to have fun!

 

 

"WARNING!!

 

ALL INDIVIDUALS USING, REFERRING TO, TALKING ABOUT, OR THINKING ABOUT THIS TOPO MUST READ THIS!!!

 

This inaccurate topo is based on dim recollections, half-baked guesses, and outright lies. In NO WAY does it tell the full story. You would probably be better off just trying to find your own way up the mountain, than you would be if you used this topo. But that statement in no way implies that I am in any way responsible if you don't use the topo, and something bad happens anyway.

 

Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way I can list them all here. Read the books.

 

The area depicted by this topo is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous, hungry or carriers of dread diseases. These may include poisonous amphibians, reptiles, and insects; insects to which you have allergies, or whose multiple stings can cause anaphylactic shock; mammals which may include skunks, badgers, marmots, lions, tigers, and bears; predatory birds, and all other manner of beasts. Plants can be poisonous as well, and even when not poisonous, can inflict serious injury like a sharp stick in the eye. This topo, and the author of this topo, will not do anything to protect you from any of this. I do not inspect, supervise or maintain the ground, rocks, cliffs, wildlife, vegetation or other features, natural or otherwise.

Real dangers are present even on approach trails. Trails are not sidewalks, and folks have died and been seriously injured even on sidewalks when they have tripped on cracked concrete, plunged into meter boxes with missing covers, been mugged, hit by cars, had pianos fall on them... Trails can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as bridges, steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. I don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. Some trails in the area are only maintained by Nelson Bighorn Sheep, who have little regard for human life or human safety, or any humans whatsoever. In summary, trails are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away.

 

Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. You probably WILL get lost. The chances of getting lost multiply geometrically after the sun goes down, due to poor visibility. The sun goes down at least once a day in this area. Not to say that you won't get lost during daylight hours. In either event, carry a flashlight, extra bulb and batteries, compass, GPS, altimeter, cellular phone, food, water, matches and first aid supplies at all times. My advising you of this does not mean there are not other things you should be carrying. Carry them all as well, and know how to use them. I am not responsible for the consequences if you fail to heed this advice. In fact, I am not responsible for the consequences even if you DO heed this advice and, for example, end up in an unplanned bivy because you were carrying too much g*dd@mnstuff, stumble into the bivy fire at 2 am when you get up to take a p!ss, and severely burn the flesh on your hands. You have only yourself to blame, so leave me out of it.

 

Rocks and other objects can, and probably will, fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. If you don't believe me check out the talus slopes at the base of some of the rock walls. They didn't just grow there. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. As a matter of fact, approaching the rock formations is not advised. That is pretty stupid too. But if you DO choose to risk your worthless scrawny neck by going near rocks, shoulder pads, knee pads, elbow pads, athletic cups and supporters and other body armor may be handy as well. These items can be purchased or rented from mountaineering shops and athletic supply stores. They won't save you if you get hit by or scrape against something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you leave nothing but a grease spot. Don't think it can't happen. It does, and it probably will.

 

Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, dehydration, frostbite, lightning, ice and snow, runoff from rainstorms, flashfloods, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap, can drown you if you're looking up into the sky with your mouth open, and vastly decreases traction on pavement. Snow is even worse, the hazards ranging from snowball fight injuries to avalanches.

If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing and are the most experienced and safest climber the world has ever known, you are still making a terrible mistake: lots of things can and do go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time.

 

Furthermore, scrambling amongst the huge boulders in this canyon, even without exposure of high places, can result in serious physical and/or emotional injury, or death.

This area, and this route, are not provided with any rangers or security personnel on any regular basis. The other people in the area, including other visitors, USFS employees, foreign agents, biologists and nature freaks, and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, a religious fanatic, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with deadly weapons and ready to use them. I'm not going to do anything about that. I refuse to take responsibility.

 

Excessive consumption of alcohol, use of prescription drugs, over-the-counter medications, and/or legal or illegal controlled substances while frequenting this area can and probably will affect your mental state, alertness, and decision-making abilities, and could make an already dangerous situation even worse. Even abstinence won't protect you from the actions of others under the influence of such substances. Tough luck. Not my fault.

 

The driveways, freeways, highways, streets, alleys, back roads and unimproved 4WD tracks leading to this area kill hundreds of folks each year. Many of these fatalities are folks who aren't even on their way to this canyon, who in fact have never heard of this canyon, but are simply innocent victims. Not so you. You have been warned. You could get killed driving to the trailhead. Wearing your seatbelt tightly fastened with the lap belt low across your waist improves your chances of survival, in most cases (except that one steep section of road) but does not and cannot guarantee your safety. You might die before ever stepping out of your vehicle at the trailhead, or on the way home. It can happen any time. If you think you are immune from this kind of thing, you're fooling yourself.

 

This is not a sterile environment. Bacteria, viruses, protozoa, protoviruses, fungi and other forms of life and protolife which may or may not be currently included in either the plant or animal kingdom are capable of causing you serious bodily harm, illness, or death. These kinds of biological agents are both endemic in the area or present in the plant and animal populations; and are also capable of being carried or transmitted by your climbing partners and traveling companions. I'm not going to take responsibility for this, either. My advice for you to treat drinking water, wash your hands before and after going to the bathroom and before eating, and to not indulge in unprotected sex in this area, in no way obligates me to be responsible for the consequences if you fail to do so, nor does it mean that even if you DO take these precautions and something happens anyway, that I am to blame. Not so. Forget it. Nada. Negativo.

 

If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. And the longer you climb the greater your risk of bad luck, which may or may not be compounded by hubris, catching up to you. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, and equipped or not, though training, experience and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. I do not provide supervision or instruction. I am not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as I know, any of them can and probably will suddenly fail without warning and send you plunging to your death with a bloodcurdling scream, likely pulling your partner to his or her doom as well. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of inobvious, extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere in the canyon. I probably don't know about any specific hazard, but even if I do, don't expect this topo or its author to try to warn you. You're on your own.

 

Furthermore, the fact that I'm not trying to stop you from being in this area in no way implies, nor should it be inferred, that I approve, recommend, advocate, or otherwise in any way affirm that such action on your part is anything but incredibly stupid.

 

Rescue services are not provided by anyone near this climb, and may not be available quickly or at all. In fact, if anything really serious happens to you in this area, you'll probably be dead before word ever reaches civilization. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. They probably won't be. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they will probably be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. I assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks, and don't blame me when it goes bad and you end up getting yourself sued in the process.

 

By using, or even just looking at this topo, you are agreeing that I owe you no duty of care or any other duty, you agree to release me, my relatives, heirs, dependents, and anyone else I care to name, now and forevermore, from any and all claims of liability, even though my actions may be grossly negligent and/or be construed as reckless endangerment, manslaughter, or other misconduct up to and including premeditated murder. By consulting this topo, you agree to waive forever any rights that you, your partners, dependents, heirs, inlaws, and others known or unknown to you may have, to legal compensation resulting from anything that has anything to do with this topo, including but in no way limited to paper cuts from the edge of the topo itself. If you try to sue me in spite of all this, you agree to pay my lawyers fees regardless of the outcome of the suit, and you expressly agree to re-reimburse me for any loss or injury, be it financial, physical, emotional, or imagined, which I may experience as a result of such lawsuit.

 

I promise you nothing. I do not and will not even try to keep the area safe for any purpose. The area is NOT safe for any purpose. This is no joke. I won't even try to warn about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether I know about it or not. If I do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean I will try to warn you about anything else. If I do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, I may not try to correct any others, and I may actually make matters worse! I may have done things in the area that are unwise and dangerous. I probably did, but I don't remember. Sorry, I'm neither competent nor responsible. The topo gives you bad advice. Don't listen. Or do listen. It's your choice, but you face the consequences either way, whatever they may be.

 

In short, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you, or your heirs, relatives, dependents or others known or unknown to you; your partner or your partners heirs, relatives, dependents, or others known or unknown to your partner, are the slimy kind of lawyer-touting parasites who would try to sue the author of a topo, If you can't take responsibility for your own decisions, knowledge, routefinding and plain dumb luck, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay far far away from this route and this canyon, give up climbing, and die of some completely natural, painful, and slowly progressive disease.

 

Thank you, climb safe, and have fun!

 

END of Disclaimer "

 

ps, I think he forgot the part about the rope! You're an OK guy Drew, sometimes a tad snarky, so don't forget to tag a happy face on the end of your mean sounding posts or it comes off wrong to those who don't know you.

 

:argue: Ok I used my morning coffee time to read this whole thing. It was quite funny. I didn't bother to read the first long one you posted as it didn't look as funny (but it might be). I might need a bigger coffee cup to read that one though. Thanks for the entertainment, your bill is being written up.

What size of a coffee cup do you need for JayB's posts? lol

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Nice, Bill!

 

Here's the disclaimer for the new Sedona guide - seems like a good place to put it...

 

LIABILITY DISCLAIMER

 

CLIMBING IS A DANGEROUS SPORT!

Involvement in rock climbing carries a significant risk of personal injury or death.

CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK!

The authors of this guidebook recommend the use of professional instruction before entering into the sport. Please become knowledgeable about the risks involved and be willing to assume personal responsibility for your actions.

 

WARNING:

CLIMBING IS A SPORT WHERE YOU MAY BE SERIOUSLY INJURED OR DIE. READ THE FOLLOWING BEFORE YOU USING THE INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS GUIDEBOOK.

 

This guide is a compilation of unverified information gathered from many different climbers. The authors cannot assure the accuracy of any information in this guide, including the maps and route descriptions, quality ratings, the difficulty ratings, and the protection ratings. These may be incorrect or misleading and it is impossible for every route to be climbed by the authors to confirm the information about each route. Also, ratings of climbing difficulty and danger are always subjective and depend on the physical characteristics (for example, height), experience, technical ability, confidence and physical fitness of the climber who supplied the rating. Additionally, climbers who achieve first ascents sometimes under-rate the difficulty or the danger of the climbing route out of fear of being ridiculed if a climb is later down-rated by subsequent ascents. Therefore, be warned that you must exercise your own judgment on where a climbing route goes, its difficulty and your ability to safely protect yourself from the risks of rock climbing. Examples of some of these risks include: falling due to technical difficulty or due to natural hazards such as holds breaking, falling rocks, climbing equipment dropped by other climbers, hazards of weather and lightning, your own equipment failure and failure or absence of fixed protection.

You should not depend on any information gleaned from this guidebook for your personal safety; your safety depends on your own good judgment, based on experience and a realistic assessment of your climbing ability. If you have any doubt as to your ability to safely climb a route described in this guidebook, do not attempt it.

The following are ways to make you use of this guidebook safer:

1. CONSULTATION: You should consult with other climbers about the difficulty and danger of a particular climb prior to attempting it. Most local climbers are glad to give advice on routes in their area and we suggest that you contact locals to confirm ratings and safety of particular routes and to obtain first-hand information about a route chosen from this guidebook.

2. INSTRUCTION: Most climbing areas have local climbing instructors and guides available. We recommend that you engage an instructor or guide to learn safety techniques and to become familiar with the routes and hazards of the areas described in this guidebook. Even after you are proficient in climbing safely, occasional use of a guide is a safe way to raise your climbing standard and learn advanced techniques.

2. FIXED PROTECTION: Many of the routes in this guidebook use bolts and pitons, which are permanently placed in rock. Because of variances in the manner of placement, weathering, metal fatigue, the quality of the metal used, and many other factors, these fixed protection pieces should always be considered suspect and should always be backed up by equipment that you place yourself. Never depend on a single piece of fixed protection because you can never tell whether it will hold weight, and in some cases, fixed protection may have been removed or is now absent.

Be aware of the following specific potential hazards which could arise in using this guidebook:

1. MISDIRECTION OF ROUTES: If you climb a route and you have doubt as to where the route may go, you should not go on unless you are sure that you can go that way safely. Route descriptions and topos in this guidebook may be inaccurate or misleading.

2. INCORRECT DIFFICULTY RATING: A route may, in fact, be more difficult than the rating indicates. Do not be lulled into a false sense of security by the difficulty rating.

3. INCORRECT PROTECTION RATING: If you climb on a route and you are unable to arrange adequate protection from the risk of falling through the use of fixed pitons or bolts and by placing your own protection devices, do not assume that there is adequate protection available higher just because the route protection rating indicates the route is not an "X" or an "R" rating. Every route is potentially an “X” rating (where a fall may be deadly), due to the inherent hazards of climbing including, for example, failure or absence of fixed protection, your own equipment's failure, or improper use of climbing equipment.

THERE ARE NO WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, THAT THIS GUIDEBOOK IS ACCURATE OR THAT THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN IT IS RELIABLE. YOUR USE OF THIS GUIDEBOOK INDICATES YOUR ASSUMPTION OF THE RISK THAT IT MAY CONTAIN ERRORS AND IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF YOUR OWN SOLE RESPONSIBILITY.

 

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Nice start Erik!

 

 

 

I had a rope fail once. It's not MY fault I didn't put any pro in, the damn thing still let me hit the ground. I bet a thicker rope would have done the trick.

True dat, if you'd had the foresight to have it coiled up directly underneath you it would have cushioned your fall. That's why the old dads always had those phat 11 mils I'd bet.

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There was another one of these incidents recently on Yellow Spur in Eldo. A lot of places and routes have sharp edges and accounting for them one way or another is part of what you have to do before you leave the ground as it's just another attribute of the crag / line.

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