tvashtarkatena Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) ....as if we didn't already know, but this confirms it officially: NYT Ironically, the fact that we've tortured these people is apparently hindering our ability to prosecute them. Edited January 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote
lI1|1! Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 She added: “He’s a very dangerous man. What do you do with him now if you don’t charge him and try him? I would be hesitant to say, ‘Let him go.’ ” The legal dilemma of how to detain an obviously dangerous individual reminds me of the legality of "committing" a mentally ill individual. There may be no hard evidense of a crime having been committed so far, but the individuals stated beliefs indicate it is likely in the future. Perhaps "known terrorists" should be detained on the same legality of forcefully hospitalizing an individual who "states a desire to harm himself or others". Of course then we'd have to keep them in hospitals with the intent to treat their illness, and not torture bins located on foreign territory. The ultimate problem might be trying to differentiate the only vaguely discernable constructs of "mental illness = not being in touch with reality" and "religious faith = beliefs in un-observable events which are also shared by others". Like, you're not crazy if you think the Earth is visited by Martians because other people think so too (this has also happened). Quote
Hugh Conway Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 At least they didn't force them to read your posts TTK Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) There is no dilemna. Stating that you're going to do harm is a crime. Being involved in a conspiracy to do harm is a crime. The government believes this individual is dangerous, so presumably it has presentable evidence to that effect. Observing basic human rights requires that this evidence be vetted by due process, or, if it doesn't exist, the prisoner be granted his/her freedom. The government may have yet again shot itself in the foot, as it has done many times regarding Gitmo already, by hastily detaining, then torturing these people. It's likely the bulk of evidence gathered against them will be inadmissable because it was gained by illegal means (torture, for example), or that the evidence gained by such means is so mixed up with all forms of evidence that the entire case against them is to tainted to obtain a conviction. Add to this that the bulk of Americans no longer believe the Administration's original story that Gitmo is full of dangerous people. It's well known now that over half the detainees were innocent and have been released, only a handful have ever been charged with a crime, and that the Administration seems to have a certain 'credibility' problem. We may well wind up in a situation where dangerous individuals are eventually set free as a direct result of the Bush admininstration's Constitutional and human rights violations. Add to this how effective Gitmo has been as a recruitment tool and you've got a pretty interesting national security policy result. Edited January 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote
kevbone Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 I heard a rumor that Bush is requesting a full pardon for himself and his entire staff. If obama pardons them all….I will lose all my faith in him. Bush needs to be behind bars…..along with Cheney. Just imagine….. A former president behind bars…..that would be awesome. It would show the world that NO ONE is above the law. But we all know this will never happen. We still don’t know who killed JFK. We know it was not Oswald. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 At least they didn't force them to read your posts TTK Recent history suggests that your masochism isn't limited to reading my posts. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 I heard a rumor that Bush is requesting a full pardon for himself and his entire staff. If obama pardons them all….I will loose all my faith in him. Bush needs to be behind bars…..along with Cheney. Just imagine….. A former president behind bars…..that would be awesome. It would show the world that NO ONE is above the law. But we all know this will never happen. We still don’t know who killed JFK. We know it was not Oswald. I heard a rumor that pardons were only for people who'd been convicted of crimes. Quote
kevbone Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 There is no dilemna. Stating that you're going to do harm is a crime. Being involved in a conspiracy to do harm is a crime. The government believes this individual is dangerous, so presumably it has presentable evidence to that effect. Observing basic human rights requires that this evidence be vetted by due process, or, if it doesn't exist, the prisoner be granted his/her freedom. The government may have yet again shot itself in the foot, as it has done many times regarding Gitmo already, by hastily detaining, then torturing these people. It's likely the bulk of evidence gathered against them will be inadmissable because it was gained by illegal means (torture, for example), or that the evidence gained by such means is so mixed up with all forms of evidence that the entire case against them is to tainted to obtain a conviction. Add to this that the bulk of Americans no longer believe the Administration's original story that Gitmo is full of dangerous people. It's well known now that over half the detainees were innocent and have been released, only a handful have ever been charged with a crime, and that the Administration seems to have a certain 'credibility' problem. We may well wind up in a situation where dangerous individuals are eventually set free as a direct result of the Bush admininstration's Constitutional and human rights violations. Add to this how effective Gitmo has been as a recruitment tool and you've got a pretty interesting national security policy result. Exactly ……and the biggest problem is the 7 low ranking reservists who are sitting in prison because no one had the balls to go after who gave them the order to torture. What kind of side show is this? Why did we have the Nuremberg trails? Quote
Hugh Conway Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Oddly TTK it's fully possible to engage in standard level spray without ever reading your posts - just responding via cliche Quote
billcoe Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Maybe Bone or Tvrasht can find room in their hearts to house this convict so he can be set free. http://www.cnn.com -or here- MSN link From MSN "updated 3:41 p.m. PT, Wed., Jan. 7, 2009 MIAMI - As the only prisoner of war held on U.S. soil .............." Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Does he clean house? Edited January 15, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 15, 2009 Author Posted January 15, 2009 Oddly TTK it's fully possible to engage in standard level spray without ever reading your posts - just responding via cliche Unlike Bug, I guess. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 15, 2009 Author Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) We've lost the ability to prosecute one Gitmo detainee because we tortured him. There will likely be many others: The blowback of torture (NYT) It should be noted that while several terrorists have been convicted and sentenced in criminal courts, none, not one, of the Gitmo detainees has ever been convicted of anything over the past seven years. It's tough to live under the rule of law. It's tyranny not to. Edited January 15, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 15, 2009 Author Posted January 15, 2009 Let's hope for some prosecutions of our own officials AT nominee Holder says waterboarding is torture Quote
Jim Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 It illustrates how low we have fallen when a potential head of DOJ says that torture is illegal and it makes news. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 15, 2009 Author Posted January 15, 2009 It also may signal that we're finally getting back up. Quote
Fairweather Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I heard a ko-ran was flushed down the toilet. gasp. Quote
prole Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I heard a ko-ran was flushed down the toilet. gasp. Coming from someone who wets the bed for a week whenever an American flag is burned. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I heard a ko-ran was flushed down the toilet. gasp. Coming from someone who wets the bed for a week whenever an American flag is burned. Prole: spray less and work off your student loans, you cheap fuck. Quote
Serenity Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 It also may signal that we're finally getting back up. Wrong again. Quote
billcoe Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 It also may signal that we're finally getting back up. Wrong again. You talkin about this? LINK Quote
ivan Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 would hooking a homeboy up to this rig and making him watch 48 consecutive hours of the home-shopping channel count as torture? would it get him to divulge the whereabouts of the secret rebel base? Quote
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