Climber dies in storm on Rainier, lessons learned

[trad_guy]

Climber dies from hypothermia in a brief storm on Mt. Rainier -- Analysis to aid in the prevention of a similar tragic loss:

 

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.Rainier.htm

--trad_guy

[Stefan]

One of their 4 mountaineering responsibilities in the person's analysis:

 

4. The Fourth Responsibility is: Carry your common digital cell phone, turned on!

 

I call B.S.

 

Cell phone reception is not reliable and therefore is NOT a responsibility of a person in a wilderness setting.

[mtn_mouse]

Reading quickly through the 'lessons learned'summary I call mostly bullshit. This group does not try to determine lessons learned like in the wildfire website, but tries to assign blame, and is quite critical of the nps. Sorry guys, but your website is very lacking and judgemental.

[cms829]

cell phone reception is not at all reliable on Rainier. at least verizon anyway. last year i was able to make one phone call from Ingraham. This year I couldnt get a signal on the lower part of the fuhrer finger or the DC at any point in time.

[Doug]

Does anyone in Bend know this guy?

[Jonathan_S]

Yet another critique to add to this "rule": if you do bring your cell phone, keep it OFF, not on. I've noticed that in areas with spotty reception, when I have left it on (for, umm, work purposes), the battery has discharged very quickly (apparently from the constant searching for reception in marginal areas).

[NateF]

Clearly all three should have been sequestered by NPS staff, held in restraints at camp Muir and fed pudding until some time in July.

 

It's difficult to disagree with some of the points made about foam pads and such that may have made a difference, but the site really comes off as judgemental know-it-all-ism, and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Kind of spoils any of the potential positive educational possibilities they are striving towards.

 

Hopefully they are as welcoming of constructive feedback as they are willing to dish it out!

[rob]

 

YEE-HA

[W]

Reading quickly through the 'lessons learned'summary I call mostly bullshit. This group does not try to determine lessons learned like in the wildfire website, but tries to assign blame, and is quite critical of the nps. Sorry guys, but your website is very lacking and judgemental.

 

I agree 100% with this post. In addition, as a close personal friend, climbing partner, and former coworker of David Gottlieb, I take vigorous exception to the criticism and implied share of blame placed upon him and/or the NPS in general for this incident. David has always been a straight talker with visitors, especially up on the mountain in informal settings, and certainly doesn't pull any punches when it comes to advice. What also has to be understood is that when speaking with the press, especially as a representative of the Park Service, it is not the forum to be launching accusatory criticism of the victims. David has, on numerous occasions, literally put his life in jeopardy saving, or trying to save, many people over the years. Compassion for fellow climbers aside, it is also in the interest of every potential rescuer to issue preventative advice to other climbers, as it also affects their own safety when an incident occurs and the call goes out. So any implication or speculation that David was negligent in his duties as a ranger or as a fellow climber in this instance are indeed outrageous and far off base.

 

While the modern technology of GPS and cell phones are certainly tools that climbers can, perhaps should, choose to include in their strategy and safety plans, the tone of that website is representative of what is clearly an increasing trend in 'mainstream' mountaineering- fostering and encouraging a unhealthy dependence on electronic gadgets and a plan for outside rescue- a mindset which time and again has demonstrated itself to carry over into actual decision making in the midst of critical alpine situations. At the same time, this distraction leads to a neglect or outright ignoring of the imperatives of self-reliance, personal responsibility, good judgment, good partnerships, and a deep respect for the mountains. It amazes me that the media continues to feed to the equally uninformed public the erroneous impression that PLB's, MLU's, and/or some sort of more punctual response by SAR teams would have somehow changed the outcome of most of these high profile (or low profile) mountain incidents.

 

Climbers survived whiteouts on Rainier and elsewhere for decades before cell phones and MLU's and GPS. I'd argue that such devices would make some more likely to venture out into horrific weather conditions with the false confidence they inspire, an especially dangerous possibility when combined with a commensurate lack of real-time outdoor survival skills, knowledge and understanding of mountain weather, and a developed mountain sense. More than once, armed only with a compass and map, or even less, I've simply decided to stay put and wait for an improvement in the conditions; or if we ventured forth, it was with a sense that we were totally on our own, and never with a plan that involved reliance upon others should things not go as planned.

 

It's quite obvious to anyone with any experience and common sense that there were mistakes made in this incident- in fact, I think there are very rarely any true "accidents". But the self-righteous tone of that website seems more bent on promoting some sort of private agenda, at the expense of others, than providing any sort of meaningful insight by which the less experienced can learn something important about outdoor survival.

 

 

 

 

 

[eldiente]

Buy more gadgets and you'll be safe! Stupid. Reading it sounds like that this site is paid for by AT&T or Garmin. As a whole I'm not a fan of Cell Phones in the woods..

[Off_White]

Nice rebuttal W. I'd say the first responsibility of traditional mountaineering is expect that you're on your own out there and act accordingly.

[bonathanjarrett]

I recently read Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzalez. Now, I have to call B.S. on some of what he tries to do in the book, but it is worth plowing through if you are at all interested in why some folks make it and others don't in severe life or death situations. Not once, at any point, or for any reason, does he attribute "modern technology" to the ability to survive. In fact he suggests that to rely on it often causes the individual to push past acceptable limits and rely on a crutch that may or may not actually be of any help.

He looks at a variety of cases including the Yates/Simpson event. What he finds is that there is something deeply biological/carnal about our ability (or lack of ability) to survive. It is a function of being thoughtful, present, willing to act, and willful enough not to die. And lucky as well.

Consider the case of the Shackleton misadventure.

[Rad]

Cell phones, ice axes, ropes, and wool knickers are all just tools people have used in the mountains. Each has its uses and limitations, but none can replace good judgment. Suggesting one tool, whether a cell phone or anything else, can save the day is just plain stupid.

 

I like the Shackleton reference above because it provides an amazing example of how men could, through wit and will, survive some of the most atrocious conditions imaginable for over a year. They didn't need a cell phone, and no one died.

[trad_guy]

 

Stefan, Posts: 1748, states:

 

"One of their 4 mountaineering responsibilities in the person's analysis:

4. The Fourth Responsibility is: Carry your common digital cell phone, turned on! I call B.S. Cell phone reception is not reliable and therefore is NOT a responsibility of a person in a wilderness setting."

 

Here is our page on the Four Basic Responsibilities: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Basic.htm

 

Here is the specific paragraph:

"4. The Fourth Responsibility is: Carry your common digital cell phone, turned on, in contact with any cell towers

Insure that you have the personal option to call for medical or rescue services. I would prefer to call for help on Friday morning at the time my leg was broken and not have to wait until Sunday at 6PM when I will be reported missing by my Responsible Person. In our experience, there are very few areas in our Oregon Cascades where a cell phone is out of contact. Several cell phones in a group are far better than one. Phone rescuers on your cell phone with your exact UTM (NAD 27) GPS coordinates, your current condition and proposed plans.

 

An important new free service is the ability of Rescuers to request from your mobile phone Provider, your general location triangulated from cell phone "ping" records or from a GPS chip in some new phones. Another option for many is to carry a $150 SPOT Satellite Messenger which can give your friends and/or 911 your exact GPS location. Oregon SAR Statutes require that you carry a means of communication such as a cell phone.

 

Carry a personal cell phone turned on and positioned where it can best stay (warm and) in contact with the cell phone towers.:

 

Note that Oregon statutes providing for compensation for Search and Rescue Services mandate a means of communication to 911.

 

Here is a full recent Analysis: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.HoodClimbers.htm

 

Note that an RMI employee confirmed that there is Cell coverage from the Lodge up to to Camp Muir. An RMI Senior Guide confirmed this statement and added that RMI Groups decending from Camp Muir check in by cell phone.

--trad-guy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trad_guy]

cms829, states:

 

"cell phone reception is not at all reliable on Rainier. at least verizon anyway. last year i was able to make one phone call from Ingraham. This year I couldnt get a signal on the lower part of the fuhrer finger or the DC at any point in time."

 

Here is our page on the Four Basic Responsibilities: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Basic.htm

 

Note that Oregon statutes providing for compensation for Search and Rescue Services mandate a means of communication to 911.

 

Here is a full recent Analysis: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.HoodClimbers.htm

 

Note that an RMI employee confirmed that there is Cell coverage from the Lodge up to to Camp Muir. An RMI Senior Guide confirmed this statement and added that RMI Groups decending from Camp Muir check in by cell phone.

--trad-guy

[G-spotter]

Using some deaths as an excuse to post links and boost your click throughs: not so cool.

[trad_guy]

Doug, an old hand asks:

"Does anyone in Bend know this guy?"

 

Doug, Gappertimmy knows me. Check us out!

 

Read the website www.TraditionalMountaineering.org

-trad_guy

Edited June 27, 2008 by trad_guy

[W]

Trad Guy:

 

You wouldn't know it from reading your website, but "traditional mountaineering" possibilities exist beyond volcanoes in Oregon and Washington. Many of these places have a) no cell phone coverage whatsoever b)no Sheriffs, search and rescue teams, or helicopters whatsoever and, believe it or not, c) poorly accurate or even non-existent maps.

 

In such places, your Responsibilities #1, #3, and #4 have absolutely no value. #2 is just common sense.

 

I am curious what your advice for mountaineering in these areas would be- stay home?

 

If your format is meant to be a rigid template to be followed for all wilderness travelers, then the future of the exploratory spirit of human adventure is bleak indeed.

[trad_guy]

Hello G-spotter:

Do you read Accidents in North American Mountaineering? 60 years of analysis.

 

The www.TraditionalMountaineering.org website is free. There is no advertizing. We offer Free Basic to Advanced Alpine Mountain Climbing Instruction. We hold free ice axe self belay and self arrest and crevasse rescue clinics: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Photos_SteepSnowClimbing.htm

 

Are you mentoring any climbers, G-Spotter?

--trad_guy

[trad_guy]

W writes:

"trad_guy:

You wouldn't know it from reading your website, but "traditional mountaineering" possibilities exist beyond volcanoes in Oregon and Washington. Many of these places have a) no cell phone coverage whatsoever b)no Sheriffs, search and rescue teams, or helicopters whatsoever and, believe it or not, c) poorly accurate or even non-existent maps.

 

In such places, your Responsibilities #1, #3, and #4 have absolutely no value. #2 is just common sense.

 

I am curious what your advice for mountaineering in these areas would be- stay home?

 

If your format is meant to be a rigid template to be followed for all wilderness travelers, then the future of the exploratory spirit of human adventure is bleak indeed."

 

The BASIC Responsibilities are just common sense. If I am climbing in Alaska I learned the basics long ago, (or I am going with a Guide?).

 

A problem is that the Sheriff just says BE PRPARED! but does not give a person new to the Pacific North West, any idea of how to be prepared.

 

Here is what I suggest:

"A suggested minimum standard news advisory for all backcountry travelers"

 

"We would like to take this opportunity to ask our visitors to the backcountry of Oregon to plan for the unexpected. Each person should dress for the forecast weather and take minimum extra clothing protection from a drop in temperature and possible rain or snow storm or an unexpected cold wet night out, insulation from the wet ground or snow, high carbohydrate snacks, two quarts of water or Gatorade, a map and compass and optional inexpensive GPS and the skills to use them, and a charged cell phone and inexpensive walkie-talkie radios. Carry the traditional personal "Ten Essentials Systems" in a day pack sized for the season and the forecast weather.

 

Visitors are reminded to tell a Responsible Person where they are going, where they plan to park, when they will be back and to make sure that person understands that they are relied upon to call 911 at a certain time if the backcountry traveler has not returned. If you become lost or stranded, mark your location and stay still or move around your marked location to stay warm. Do not try to find your way until you are exhausted, or worse yet - wet. Wait for rescuers."

 

W, have you read our mission?

THE MISSION of TraditionalMountaineering.org

 

"To provide information and instruction about world-wide basic to advanced alpine mountain climbing safety skills and gear, on and off trail hiking, scrambling and light and fast Leave No Trace backpacking techniques based on the foundation of an appreciation for the Stewardship of the Land, all illustrated through photographs and accounts of actual shared mountaineering adventures."

 

TraditionalMountaineering is founded on the premise that "He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught", that exploring the hills and summitting peaks have dangers that are hidden to the un-informed and that these inherent risks can be in part, identified and mitigated by mentoring: information, training, wonderful gear, and knowledge gained through the experiences of others.

 

The value of TraditionalMountaineering to our Friends and Subscribers is the selectivity of the information we provide, and its relevance to introducing folks to informed hiking on the trail, exploring off the trail, mountain travel and Leave-no-Trace light-weight bivy and backpacking, technical travel over steep snow, rock and ice, technical glacier travel and a little technical rock climbing on the way to the summit. Whatever your capabilities and interests, there is a place for everyone in traditional alpine mountaineering.

 

Edited June 27, 2008 by trad_guy

[Fairweather]

Hello G-spotter:

Do you read Accidents in North American Mountaineering? 60 years of analysis.

 

 

I haven't read it for over ten years. Why? Because nothing ever changes and lessons that could be learned are rarely, if ever, applied. That weather was not a surprise.

[trad_guy]

eldiente Wrote:

"Buy more gadgets and you'll be safe! Stupid. Reading it sounds like that this site is paid for by AT&T or Garmin. As a whole I'm not a fan of Cell Phones in the woods.. "

 

Risk is an essential part of traditioanl alpine mountaineering. Here is a good analysis of the subject:

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Book_Risk.htm

 

Here is a tragic event in Oregon that was carefully studied:

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Report_Hood_EpiscopalSchool.htm

 

Are you familiar with this? Is this what you advocate, eldiente?

--trad_guy

[AlpineK]

...but does not give a person new to the Pacific North West...

 

So Trad Guy you're kind of new to these parts of the world. Let me be the first to tell you you're not in the North West. Around here It's called the Northwest.

 

Other than making that minor error you've demonstrated a massive lack of knowledge of climbing in the Northwest. Climbers have been active in remote mountains for years and years. My dad was an active climber in the 50s. Let me tell you something... They didn't have cell phones and GPS in the 50s Despite that some amazing climbs happened here.

 

I started climbing in the 70s and I learned then that you have to be aware that you are going places where you can't call for help. That is what you have to prepare for.

 

Today we have a lot of fancy pants devices that we can use, but that doesn't mean that things are different. You still need to be prepared to go climbing knowing that you can't pick up your cell phone and dial 911.

 

I was down on the northeast side of Rainier this last weekend. Guess what There was no cell phone reception.

 

Go ahead and post links to your stupid website. I ain't clicking on them, and I would urge everybody else reading this to do the same. You obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[BillA]

Trad guy kind of seems like that guy with the dog. The unnecessary capitalization is driving me crazy. His analyses are whack. "Educating" a whole new generation of cell phone reliant backcountry travelers, awesome! I love the internet.

 

Also, your four basic responsibilities are f-ing stupid and I don't think in 1986 (the OES thing) they had cell phones (maybe they had those sweet bag phones) or GPS. So whatever, STFU.

Edited June 27, 2008 by BillA

[Hugh Conway]

Hello G-spotter:

Do you read Accidents in North American Mountaineering? 60 years of analysis.

 

 

I haven't read it for over ten years. Why? Because nothing ever changes and lessons that could be learned are rarely, if ever, applied. That weather was not a surprise.

 

Yup.

 

The narrative of individual accidents is only useful in a classroom setting to illustrate a point. Aside from collating statistics about accidents it's much better to focus on the positive steps of how to do the right thing than how Johnny went wrong at rap 6 because he hadn't brought anything to eat or drink and was hypothermic.