JayB Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Hang in there. It's all for the kids. BTW you could easily get an "emergency certification" and become a math teacher. That's how the State of Washington responds to a crisis/shortage in the math-ed labor market, instead of paying a competitive wage. Imagine getting paid for 7.5 hours/day when you're working 10-12 hours! The beautiful thing is that your job would be absolutely secure...since NOBODY wants to do it! Rudy, YOU could make the difference in the life of one student (although the other 29 don't give a flying f%&k). Public school. Too much public, not enough school. How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? Quote
Jim Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Jay - Oh that type of talk will get hackels up. My wife has an MS in Geology and is one of the few science teachers in Seattle who has actually worked in any science field. Most science teachers have a teaching degree with a bit of science. Any discussion of merit pay or diference in pay based on scarcity or comparable job load is off limits. I think the main problem that the pay is so crappy and the hours and demands so high it's hard to attract talented folks to the profession and if they manage to do so they get toasted over 5 years. Very hard job, I don't think I could do it. And one of us has to pull in a decent salary anyway. Quote
Hugh Conway Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? They'd be angry if they could calculate the difference - but they need a math teacher to help Quote
billcoe Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 As someone who was once seconds from going postal in the classic way, I hope you can remember that this too will pass. Wishing you well Rudy. Quote
JayB Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Jay - Oh that type of talk will get hackels up. My wife has an MS in Geology and is one of the few science teachers in Seattle who has actually worked in any science field. Most science teachers have a teaching degree with a bit of science. Any discussion of merit pay or diference in pay based on scarcity or comparable job load is off limits. I think the main problem that the pay is so crappy and the hours and demands so high it's hard to attract talented folks to the profession and if they manage to do so they get toasted over 5 years. Very hard job, I don't think I could do it. And one of us has to pull in a decent salary anyway. That's what I've heard elsewhere, but hadn't taken the time to verify - although I seem to recall reading an NEA position along those lines. As long as the guy with a BS in physics makes the same amount as the guy with a BA in English, the shortage of qualified teachers in math and the sciences will persist. FWIW I'd wager that on average, teachers of any stripe could match or exceed the salaries they're earning elsewhere much more easily than the average mid-to-upper level administrator could - but that's another story... Kudos to your wife for doing what she does. Quote
ivan Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? i'm in a teacher's union and it isn't anathema to me to see higher pay for jobs that are actually harder to fill - that seems like straight market economics to me - if you wanna reduce my pay so you can pay a math teacher more though that will be pissing me off, as well as insinuating that what i teach (social studies) is less valuable that math/science in the grand scheme of things. Quote
RuMR Posted April 7, 2008 Author Posted April 7, 2008 yer right...i'm not an engineer... so what are working on that requires so much work? engineering...maybe i shoulda said "yer right...i don't want to be an engineer"... Quote
RuMR Posted April 7, 2008 Author Posted April 7, 2008 As someone who was once seconds from going postal in the classic way, I hope you can remember that this too will pass. Wishing you well Rudy. thanks bill...its hard to maintain perspective...i feel like i'm cracking up... Quote
JayB Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? i'm in a teacher's union and it isn't anathema to me to see higher pay for jobs that are actually harder to fill - that seems like straight market economics to me - if you wanna reduce my pay so you can pay a math teacher more though that will be pissing me off, as well as insinuating that what i teach (social studies) is less valuable that math/science in the grand scheme of things. Seems like that's what would have to happen eventually if supply and demand ever factored into teacher salaries. Maybe not straight off the bat, but when you are taking the funds out of the same pot - eventually someone with a BA in English is going to top out at a lower comp level, or get a smaller merit increase - and that money will be landing in the hands of the folks with the more valuable (in the strict economic sense) qualifications. Knowing what I do about the respective difficulties associated with securing a degree in the hard sciences, versus securing a degree in the humanities (did both), I think I'd be pissed off if the guy with the degree in English was making the same amount of money that I was. Is there even such a thing as a "weed-out" course in English programs? Seems like taking the money out of administrator pay, or cutting the number of administrator's would be a politically acceptable way to get beyond the "fairness" impasse.... Quote
Jim Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Never ran into an English Lit or History major that changed to math or science because it was too hard. Quote
G-spotter Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 Is aan agreement cud be maid that a deegre in English just moar impotent than degree in meth. Quote
grtmtnchic Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? i'm in a teacher's union and it isn't anathema to me to see higher pay for jobs that are actually harder to fill - that seems like straight market economics to me - if you wanna reduce my pay so you can pay a math teacher more though that will be pissing me off, as well as insinuating that what i teach (social studies) is less valuable that math/science in the grand scheme of things. Seems like that's what would have to happen eventually if supply and demand ever factored into teacher salaries. Maybe not straight off the bat, but when you are taking the funds out of the same pot - eventually someone with a BA in English is going to top out at a lower comp level, or get a smaller merit increase - and that money will be landing in the hands of the folks with the more valuable (in the strict economic sense) qualifications. Knowing what I do about the respective difficulties associated with securing a degree in the hard sciences, versus securing a degree in the humanities (did both), I think I'd be pissed off if the guy with the degree in English was making the same amount of money that I was. Is there even such a thing as a "weed-out" course in English programs? Seems like taking the money out of administrator pay, or cutting the number of administrator's would be a politically acceptable way to get beyond the "fairness" impasse.... All this "English Major" bashing is starting to piss me off...so of course you know now what I studied! There were PLENTY of "weed-out" courses...ever taken a course in Post-Modern American Poetry? A little Ezra Pound? Read much Thomas Pynchon or DeLillo? Writing critical theory abstracts?! Puh-lease! Though I will grant you that most of those were electives, not required, so I guess one could get an English degree without taking courses like "Chaos Theory in Literature" like I did. My only point is, please stop bashing the English Majors! Some of them (like me) are really good at math/physics too!! I would agree with your point about administrators however... Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? i'm in a teacher's union and it isn't anathema to me to see higher pay for jobs that are actually harder to fill - that seems like straight market economics to me - if you wanna reduce my pay so you can pay a math teacher more though that will be pissing me off, as well as insinuating that what i teach (social studies) is less valuable that math/science in the grand scheme of things. Seems like that's what would have to happen eventually if supply and demand ever factored into teacher salaries. Maybe not straight off the bat, but when you are taking the funds out of the same pot - eventually someone with a BA in English is going to top out at a lower comp level, or get a smaller merit increase - and that money will be landing in the hands of the folks with the more valuable (in the strict economic sense) qualifications. Knowing what I do about the respective difficulties associated with securing a degree in the hard sciences, versus securing a degree in the humanities (did both), I think I'd be pissed off if the guy with the degree in English was making the same amount of money that I was. Is there even such a thing as a "weed-out" course in English programs? Seems like taking the money out of administrator pay, or cutting the number of administrator's would be a politically acceptable way to get beyond the "fairness" impasse.... All this "English Major" bashing is starting to piss me off...so of course you know now what I studied! There were PLENTY of "weed-out" courses...ever taken a course in Post-Modern American Poetry? A little Ezra Pound? Read much Thomas Pynchon or DeLillo? Writing critical theory abstracts?! Puh-lease! Though I will grant you that most of those were electives, not required, so I guess one could get an English degree without going taking courses like "Chaos Theory in Literature" like I did. My only point is, please stop bashing the English Majors! Some of them (like me) are really good at math/physics too!! I would agree with your point about administrators however... A lot of "hard" science classes really aren't that "hard", which is why I never understood the poor schmucks who change from "pre-med" to "English Lit" after failing their first course in Chemistry or Physics. Quote
cheamclimber Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 IMO chemistry is really hard I find.... physics and bio arent that bad.. thats for grd 11 tho Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 IMO chemistry is really hard I find.... physics and bio arent that bad.. thats for grd 11 tho IMO, the amount of chemistry, physics, or bio you'd need to master in order to teach regular high school science classes is really not that tough. Quote
Dechristo Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 What's this about poor teaching salaries? By proving I was earning nearly double outside, I negotiated $58k to start at the local college. Quote
rbw1966 Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 I didn't read any of the above as "bashing" english majors. I started off as a hard science major (biology) and switched majors not so much because of how difficult Bio was but because of the time committment; between reading the texts, labs and lectures I was unable to work enough hours to pay for school (I worked my way through). I found it pretty easy to bullshit my way through interpreting symbolism in DeLillo versus cloning DNA. Notwithstanding Ivan's comment, I think you would be hard-pressed to find many teachers willing to see their peers in different disciplines make more money just because of job scarcity. I hang out with a lot of teachers and just bringing up the subject of merit pay can really get tempers raging. Sometimes its fun for entertainment purposes though. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 What's this about poor teaching salaries? By proving I was earning nearly double outside, I negotiated $58k to start at the local college. $58K for working 9 months a year? That's pretty damn sweet, IMO. Quote
rbw1966 Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 A lot of "hard" science classes really aren't that "hard", which is why I never understood the poor schmucks who change from "pre-med" to "English Lit" after failing their first course in Chemistry or Physics. A good friend of mine, English major, went back to school and took a slew of science courses after unsuccessfully trying to get into a post-grag english program. He's a doctor now. Quote
JayB Posted April 7, 2008 Posted April 7, 2008 How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? i'm in a teacher's union and it isn't anathema to me to see higher pay for jobs that are actually harder to fill - that seems like straight market economics to me - if you wanna reduce my pay so you can pay a math teacher more though that will be pissing me off, as well as insinuating that what i teach (social studies) is less valuable that math/science in the grand scheme of things. Seems like that's what would have to happen eventually if supply and demand ever factored into teacher salaries. Maybe not straight off the bat, but when you are taking the funds out of the same pot - eventually someone with a BA in English is going to top out at a lower comp level, or get a smaller merit increase - and that money will be landing in the hands of the folks with the more valuable (in the strict economic sense) qualifications. Knowing what I do about the respective difficulties associated with securing a degree in the hard sciences, versus securing a degree in the humanities (did both), I think I'd be pissed off if the guy with the degree in English was making the same amount of money that I was. Is there even such a thing as a "weed-out" course in English programs? Seems like taking the money out of administrator pay, or cutting the number of administrator's would be a politically acceptable way to get beyond the "fairness" impasse.... All this "English Major" bashing is starting to piss me off...so of course you know now what I studied! There were PLENTY of "weed-out" courses...ever taken a course in Post-Modern American Poetry? A little Ezra Pound? Read much Thomas Pynchon or DeLillo? Writing critical theory abstracts?! Puh-lease! Though I will grant you that most of those were electives, not required, so I guess one could get an English degree without going taking courses like "Chaos Theory in Literature" like I did. My only point is, please stop bashing the English Majors! Some of them (like me) are really good at math/physics too!! I would agree with your point about administrators however... No bashing intended. However, the reality is that it'll take the average person far more time and effort to get a degree in the hard sciences or engineering than it will for them to get a degree in either the social sciences or the humanities. Quote
sk Posted April 8, 2008 Posted April 8, 2008 (edited) How would your peers in the teacher's union feel about paying math/chem/physics teachers more than the folks teaching humanities or PE? i'm in a teacher's union and it isn't anathema to me to see higher pay for jobs that are actually harder to fill - that seems like straight market economics to me - if you wanna reduce my pay so you can pay a math teacher more though that will be pissing me off, as well as insinuating that what i teach (social studies) is less valuable that math/science in the grand scheme of things. Seems like that's what would have to happen eventually if supply and demand ever factored into teacher salaries. Maybe not straight off the bat, but when you are taking the funds out of the same pot - eventually someone with a BA in English is going to top out at a lower comp level, or get a smaller merit increase - and that money will be landing in the hands of the folks with the more valuable (in the strict economic sense) qualifications. Knowing what I do about the respective difficulties associated with securing a degree in the hard sciences, versus securing a degree in the humanities (did both), I think I'd be pissed off if the guy with the degree in English was making the same amount of money that I was. Is there even such a thing as a "weed-out" course in English programs? Seems like taking the money out of administrator pay, or cutting the number of administrator's would be a politically acceptable way to get beyond the "fairness" impasse.... All this "English Major" bashing is starting to piss me off...so of course you know now what I studied! There were PLENTY of "weed-out" courses...ever taken a course in Post-Modern American Poetry? A little Ezra Pound? Read much Thomas Pynchon or DeLillo? Writing critical theory abstracts?! Puh-lease! Though I will grant you that most of those were electives, not required, so I guess one could get an English degree without going taking courses like "Chaos Theory in Literature" like I did. My only point is, please stop bashing the English Majors! Some of them (like me) are really good at math/physics too!! I would agree with your point about administrators however... No bashing intended. However, the reality is that it'll take the average person far more time and effort to get a degree in the hard sciences or engineering than it will for them to get a degree in either the social sciences or the humanities. perhaps it is that the social sciences and humanities are more intuitive for most people. I didn't stay in college long enough to declare a major. I am planning to go back though. I think i know what i want to do with my degree once i get it. however sometimes when i read about what is going on in schools, it makes me want to suck it up and get a degree in geology or biology so i can teach. p.s. Rumr if it makes you feel any better I had a majorly shitty day at work today.even the best job can stink to high heaven some days. Edited April 8, 2008 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer Quote
Dechristo Posted April 8, 2008 Posted April 8, 2008 Dealing with the students wasn't too difficult. The politics with the staff and administration was untenable. Quote
grtmtnchic Posted April 8, 2008 Posted April 8, 2008 (edited) What's this about poor teaching salaries? By proving I was earning nearly double outside, I negotiated $58k to start at the local college. $58K for working 9 months a year? That's pretty damn sweet, IMO. The community college teaching gig is not a bad deal at all...most of the instructors get around $49-55K for 9 mos, then they moonlight on top of that (a few extra hours of class time/week = an extra 10-16K/year), lots of days off at the holidays, then most work summers too - a $12K deal for 4 days/week in the summer...and when you've been teaching the subjects for a long time, there isn't as much prep work. Most of the instructors assign "group projects" (= 1 project to grade per 3-4 students) and exams only (no assignments to grade). As DC pointed out, it's the administration that's the big pain in the butt! And grant "objectives" to meet to make Legislators happy so that you can keep your sweet teaching gig. But you have to enjoy that kind of work - it can be really fulfilling. Edited April 8, 2008 by grtmtnchic Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.