The sad f#$%ing truth

[Bug]

The Dawg posts the truth.

Our generation will be cursed by future climbers as short-sighted, self-centered, and less remarkable than previous generations of climbers.

There are exceptions but they are few.

Just because we have the technology does not mean we should plaster the world with it. The long term consequences are huge.

 

But I waste my fingers here................

 

Edited July 11, 2008 by Bug

[Hugh Conway]

But I waste my fingers here................

 

Hey bug - you going to move to a small cabin out in Montucky?

[Bug]

No Hugh. Simply pointing out that it is senseless to argue with most of you because you are "short-sighted, self-centered, and less remarkable than previous generations of climbers."

[Off_White]

Our generation will be cursed by future climbers as short-sighted, self-centered, and less remarkable than previous generations of climbers.

 

Fuck, not you too? Do your research, EVERY GENERATION is cursed for being short-sighted, self-centered, and less remarkable than the previous generation BY THE PREVIOUS GENERATION. We're not talking just climbing here, but every facet of human existence. Grow the fuck up all you bitter old farts and let go of the notion that you were so fucking special back in the day. IT'S NOT TRUE!

 

Some day you'll be revered, but for now you're just a doddering self important pud pulling dick whistle. Once you're dead and gone and can't ruin the reverent ambiance with petulant complaints, someone might remember you fondly, though perhaps the Internet makes this less likely.

 

 

 

 

[pink]

why not just try to be a part of every generation, that's what jimmy O does.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

 

kids these days. what's the world coming to. when I was a kid, we...

 

 

[pink]

up hill both ways dude

[Bug]

Once you're dead and gone and can't ruin the reverent ambiance with petulant complaints, someone might remember you fondly, though perhaps the Internet makes this less likely.

Speak for yourself.

We ARE part of the current generation. Would that it were not true.

It is wanton bolting I speak of. Not every bolt is evil but the self-rightous spewing of bolts without regard to the interests of others. The battle lines are grey to be sure. But the arguement should be had. That is what Dawg is talking about.

The issue of ethics is upon us and we choose to ignore it.

 

[Hugh Conway]

Once you're dead and gone and can't ruin the reverent ambiance with petulant complaints, someone might remember you fondly, though perhaps the Internet makes this less likely.

Speak for yourself.

We ARE part of the current generation. Would that it were not true.

It is wanton bolting I speak of. Not every bolt is evil but the self-rightous spewing of bolts without regard to the interests of others. The battle lines are grey to be sure. But the arguement should be had. That is what Dawg is talking about.

The issue of ethics is upon us and we choose to ignore it.

 

there is much ambivalence over cock

[akhalteke]

What is worse is when 26 year olds subscribe to the same mindset eh Off?

Edited July 12, 2008 by akhalteke

[akhalteke]

Grow the fuck up all you bitter old farts and let go of the notion that you were so fucking special back in the day. IT'S NOT TRUE!

 

I dunno Off. I am young and I think that today's youth is mired in self-indulgence and the idea that the rights afforded in this country are owed to them. I really do feel that we are looking at the same thing that killer the Romans and everyother empire before us. Decadence. We are losing our decadence now and time will tell how we handle it.

[Hugh Conway]

What is worse is when 26 year olds subscribe to the same mindset eh Off?

 

we make allowances for the mentally retarded

[akhalteke]

What is worse is when 26 year olds subscribe to the same mindset eh Off?

 

we make allowances for the mentally retarded

 

Much appreciated old timer.

[minx]

wasn't this about global warming?

[akhalteke]

Not yet. Still too short. Check back in a couple of pages.

[kevbone]

Damn good thread drift going on......

[billcoe]

Bill, it makes me sad because I've known the Dawg intermittently for almost 30 years, and that collapse into the stereotypical old person's rant about how the youth today just don't get it, their music sucks, their ethics are debased, and life in general has gone downhill since I was young has been repeated ad infinitum since Sophocles started to feel old. C'mon, you, me, and the Dawg are essentially peers, doesn't it make you sad when your friends retreat into that "when we were young giants stalked the earth" bullshit? I do count Don as a friendly sort, if not a bosom buddy, and I'd happily climb with him and have every confidence in his skills, and I'm sure we'd have a giddy good time on whatever we did, but it just makes me sad that he views the world from the wrong end of the telescope and everything looks so far away and alien.

 

Okay, now you know it, I'm actually a tender hearted individual, and I can't really laugh at someone else's sincere pain, and the Dawg's pain around climbing is quite sincere and heartfelt. He's not posing.

 

I'd tie in with you any day Doug. I can say that although I don't know anyone who has retreated into such supreme self-righteousness as the Dawg, from what I've seen here I think his mentality borders on certifiable. On anther thread almost 2 weeks ago Don called me a boltmaster or some such thing. I found it interesting in that we'd done 4 brand new FA's that weekend and there wasn't a single bolt. Not one. The hardest was 5.11 and the longest was a 300' 5.7 done ground up. Left 4 sets of rap rings on trees to get down that one. I don't like excessive bolting, yet I don't exclude the reasonable use of bolts where there are beautiful faces that are only blank expanse of knobs. Therin we part company.

 

He thinks Smith Rocks is a late term abortion. I like the place but don't get there much. I climbed there when we were the only folks there "back when" in 1972, you needed a raft and an extra rope if the water was high - and I like it more now (if there are not lines). There's more bolts and more people: true, but more lines as well and they are all cleaner. It's rare to stumble across a shit bolt. The bolted climbs there are great to get on.

 

If the knobs on a cliff are so small that you cannot tie them off, I think bolts are appropriate. Like a broken record, Don uses the argument that one is permanently altering public property with the use of a bolt, yet he doesn't say shit when they are blowing up rocks and entire cliffs, and bulldozing major miles of roads permanently altering the watershed and forests: yet he can find the time and energy to endlessly rant and complain and drone on and on and on and on and on and complain more about a few small stainless studs that are inert, non-harmful to the environment, cannot be seen from even a small distance away and is easily removed.

 

Certifiable.

[akhalteke]

I think you guys are taking his posts a little too seriously. Sure, he is on the far side as far as anti-bolt goes. Hyperbole of position is his schtik. I am pretty sure that he has a big shit eatin' grin on his face when he runs his suck about bolting.

 

You gotta admit though: Bolting is Mannifest Destiny in the Vertical Realm.

[tvashtarkatena]

There's probably a sense of entitlement at work here. Dawg dreams of the halcyon days when climbers were a rare breed of iconoclastic vulgarians who swept wives away from more boring men, belly laughed at their near death experiences (within earshot of at least one mere mortal) and never paid for anything. The crags, no, THEIR crags, were private dominions for this happy few; they did as they pleased, casting the norms of society away like so much choss, a word I'd wager Dawg refuses entry to his lexicon for.

 

Dawg's concern is not for public property, which must now be shared by many for many different purposes, one of which happens to be bolted sport climbing; it's for HIS property. Democracy be damned, Dawg's crags are an atavocracy, where there is no room for the alien habits of a new generation, and the pressures of a changed, more crowded world simply shouldn't exist. Because, let's face it, Dawg's oft outed 'ethical/environmental' argument is a joke when weighed against certain more pressing issues.

 

But, alas, they do.

Edited July 12, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[akhalteke]

Dawg's oft outed 'ethical/environmental' argument is a joke when weighed against certain more pressing issues.

 

Like what hot shot?

[Raindawg]

Bill, it makes me sad because I've known the Dawg intermittently for almost 30 years, and that collapse into the stereotypical old person's rant about how the youth today just don't get it, their music sucks, their ethics are debased, and life in general has gone downhill since I was young has been repeated ad infinitum since Sophocles started to feel old. C'mon, you, me, and the Dawg are essentially peers, doesn't it make you sad when your friends retreat into that "when we were young giants stalked the earth" bullshit? I do count Don as a friendly sort, if not a bosom buddy, and I'd happily climb with him and have every confidence in his skills, and I'm sure we'd have a giddy good time on whatever we did, but it just makes me sad that he views the world from the wrong end of the telescope and everything looks so far away and alien.

 

Okay, now you know it, I'm actually a tender hearted individual, and I can't really laugh at someone else's sincere pain, and the Dawg's pain around climbing is quite sincere and heartfelt. He's not posing.

 

I'd tie in with you any day Doug. I can say that although I don't know anyone who has retreated into such supreme self-righteousness as the Dawg, from what I've seen here I think his mentality borders on certifiable. On anther thread almost 2 weeks ago Don called me a boltmaster or some such thing. I found it interesting in that we'd done 4 brand new FA's that weekend and there wasn't a single bolt. Not one. The hardest was 5.11 and the longest was a 300' 5.7 done ground up. Left 4 sets of rap rings on trees to get down that one. I don't like excessive bolting, yet I don't exclude the reasonable use of bolts where there are beautiful faces that are only blank expanse of knobs. Therin we part company.

 

He thinks Smith Rocks is a late term abortion. I like the place but don't get there much. I climbed there when we were the only folks there "back when" in 1972, you needed a raft and an extra rope if the water was high - and I like it more now (if there are not lines). There's more bolts and more people: true, but more lines as well and they are all cleaner. It's rare to stumble across a shit bolt. The bolted climbs there are great to get on.

 

If the knobs on a cliff are so small that you cannot tie them off, I think bolts are appropriate. Like a broken record, Don uses the argument that one is permanently altering public property with the use of a bolt, yet he doesn't say shit when they are blowing up rocks and entire cliffs, and bulldozing major miles of roads permanently altering the watershed and forests: yet he can find the time and energy to endlessly rant and complain and drone on and on and on and on and on and complain more about a few small stainless studs that are inert, non-harmful to the environment, cannot be seen from even a small distance away and is easily removed.

 

Certifiable.

 

Raindawg/Dwayner/Don speaks:

 

Certifiably concerned.

 

It's like this...

Change isn't always good. Some of you are bitchin' about how much Bush sucks and you might argue that you preferred Clinton or someone else, or other policies before the present administration. I, personally, saw and experienced a better day, IMHO, that many new climbers never saw, in which there was an environmental awareness that has since been compromised...that is, an awareness that any permanent alteration to the natural climbing environment should be thoughtfully considered. For a few years, when I first became enchanted with climbing, this was the cause and an inspiration to me. Climb clean as possible and leave little trace. Every permanent alteration (trail, piton or bolt] should be an ethical decision. ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT NOTION, alleged Green-Folk??? (And yes, I recognize that not everyone was doing it back then...so what...the idea was still there.)

Sport climbing (although fun, safe and with an incredibly short learning-curve that appeals to the masses), and callous rap-bolting, are the anti-thesis of this. Anything wrong with sharing that opinion? Am I an "old fogey" because some people promoted this environmentalistic ideal in the 1970's? Ever consider that clean-climbing is a great idea that should be as current as ever? Should I just accept any crap that comes along because it comes along? Those of you who call yourselves "progressives" are often the last to call B.S. when you see it...if it's "change" than it's O.K. and those who don't "go with the flow" are therefore anachronistic??? That's stupid reasoning. Good ideas are good ideas whatever the vintage. If the same green idea originated in 2007, I'd be equally enthusiastic.

 

Some of you claim to be environmentalists but you've got a blind eye when it comes to your favorite sport because you're afraid of the implications: your cheap, dumb, unenviromental way of climbing might be ethically dubious and if found out, it could be shut down by THE MAN....Maybe it should be.

 

The old smokescreen of masking the issue with arguments that "they're building a ski area over there, or a road in the National Park there" or "bolts are tiny li'l things" is a joke. It doesn't justify that everything short of the huge and dramatic is therefore trivial. I'm a climber. I can't solve all the world's problems. I'm concerned with a certain aspect of it, as minute as it might seem (and is). I choose my causes and I'm glad that there are people addressing some of the other important issues out there. I believe I saw a better day and things should have evolved from there. In some ways they did (clean technology such as cams, and such) but in other ways, I've seen it totally digress (e.g. indiscrimate sport-bolting).

 

I don't need your sympathy...if I find anything pathetic or "sad", it's those who automatically accept the status quo as "all good" and anything new or different as "progress". I find it pretty sad when the ordinary modern backpacker seems to have superior environmental ethics to many a "modern" climber, the latter typically accepting the routine, gratuitous and reckless permanent alterations of the environment as the status quo and the dominant modus operandi, along with the attitude that they have a right to do whatever they want at will with public resources. In my opinion, many climbers are no better than the unthoughtful picnicker who leaves a pile of garbage in their wake....at least the paper portions of the excessive MacDonald's debris will soon disolve...unlike the metallic refuse that's routinely and thoughtlessly drilled in profusion in the public domain.

 

Anything else you dont' understand? Any of you self-styled hippies have a problem with my environmentalism? (I never thought I'd be a bigger hippie than Off White!)

 

- Raindawg/Dwayner/Don

 

P.S. Despite the friction, I consider Mr. White a brother whose history overlaps with mine, Mr. Billcoe: a probable contemporary who might be fun to meet, at least for some beers, and Kevbone???????? dang dude, you ain't learned to think so much yet but we's could make a hilarious climbing video called "An Exercises be in Contrasts".

PPSS: Ya. billcoe...the Smith Rocks are pretty much a "late-term abortion"....makes me wanna hurl.

 

 

[kevbone]

Ever consider that clean-climbing is a great idea that should be as current as ever?

 

Don. What is clean climbing? I have seen lots of ground up accents with no bolts. Yet it was vertical gardening. They KILLED so many different kinds of moss and trees and plants. Just saying.....

 

Mr. Billcoe: a probable contemporary who might be fun to meet, at least for some beers, and Kevbone???????? dang dude, you ain't learned to think so much yet but we's could make a hilarious climbing video called "An Exercises be in Contrasts".

 

 

 

You can say what you want of me....I would still climb with you. It is ok to agree to disagree and still get along.

 

Video....dang. That would be fun.

 

Kevin

[mattp]

So is this the “Is Dawg your friend” thread now? As a frequent “adversary” of the Dawg on this board, I”ll echo some of what our brother Off White said about how it is sad to see someone who is either as bitter as the Dawg professes to be or who amuses himself pretending to be the curmudgeon who hates all things new but either way I think that somewhat misses the point - at least in the context of the original post to this thread. And it also tends to obscure the fact that the issues of style and ethics are very real issues that actually matter a great deal, but cc.com either can not or simply is not the place to address them.

 

The problem I have with cc.com discussions in general is that there really is not much discussion. Everyone becomes a cartoon character, with one guy posting about how one climber in particular or maybe everyone climbing today should be ashamed of their selves, someone else posting some taunting pictures of artificial holds, another guy beating his chest about not needing all the pussy bolts, somebody spewing baseless insults just to see if he can get rise, and two or three more saying “ho hum...”

 

With cc.com or the internet or climbers being what they are [pick one] the discussion here all too often it boils down to name calling and some kind of sprayathon completely devoid of factual information or even any professed interest in the facts. One guy says it is those younger climbers who learned to climb in the gym who are putting in all the bolts. Really? Last time I checked, that isn't true and virtually everybody who has been criticized here over bolting issues learned to climb before there was a single climbing gym anywhere. Somebody else says “such and such is a pathetic bolted crack” or blah blah blah is a sporto weenie route. Go out and look, and what do you know: it is not that way. Somebody else asserts that we don’t have to worry about slander or stupidity around here because the rangers or conservation groups or whoever we don’t want to offend or misinform never reads this site. Guess again. Sometimes these “truths” or “untruths” are merely mistakes or disagreements or language, but much of the time they simply occur because we are too busy trying to score points in an Internet argument to slow down and think about whether we have anything significant to say.

 

CC.COM is what it is and we are who we are. For some the entertainment is more important than anything else, others come here for TR’s and maybe even hope to learn something more substantive once in a while. Still others are looking for climbing partners. Are any of these “ethics threads” important? Does any of it matter? I think it does but we can all disagree about how much or why.

[Bug]

......it also tends to obscure the fact that the issues of style and ethics are very real issues that actually matter a great deal, but cc.com either can not or simply is not the place to address them.

 

Personal choice is one thing.

Stating an opinion as though it is a fact is another.

I have always liked Dawg's posts and feel he is contrary to popular opinion but not any more a curmudgeon than any other poster with 500+ posts. You are using personal attacks to hide your unwillingness or inability to look in the mirror objectively.

Just because you don't like his opinions, MattP and anybody else in the majority here,does not make you any less a curmudgeon than he.

It depends on who you ask.

 

Dawg's latest post is clear and informative. It comes from a mindset that we are all responsible for our actions as in the bumper sticker, "Think Globally, Act locally".

It is a clearly supported philosophy in relationship to global warming, poverty, and you name it. You guys who diss Dwayner and his ilk are being as short sighted as the GW/Cheney ilk. You just do not see where this will end up. How many bolts will there be before you start saying "Hmmm. Maybe we should carefully consider this."?

[mattp]

I'll admit to being a curmudgeon, Bug, but not the personal attack. I actually attempted to steer the conversation AWAY from personal attack, saying I somewhat agree with OffWhite but it is neither here nor there and I'm more interested in talking about our ethical discussions "in general" than I am in talking about whether or not Dawg is a good guy. In my examples of what I find frustrating, I sought to chose examples that regular posters here would recognize, but I similarly avoided mention of some items I have recently found substantially more maddening or whatever or are recent "hot topics" that someone would surely feel the need to debate. Further, I selected examples that were not necessarily references to the Dawg or even his position. I hoped to talk and encourage talk about an "issue" rather than a "person."

 

As you note, Dawg's essay here was well stated.