Crazy Permit Fines

[wfinley]

So why didn't the judge just impose the prosecution's desired fine? There's a strong implication that it was because Blake dared to show up in his court.

If he had plead guilty and shut his mouth then it would have bee a basic process. But instead it was a guilty plea followed by an attempt at explaining why he broke the law. In hearing this the judge decided that he didn't learn his lesson from the standard ticket fee so he decided to impose a stiffer penalty. This is kind of like a judge imposing a stiffer sentence on someone who doesn't voice regret for the crime they committed.

[chucK]

... and it might have been based on what Blake said too.

 

But let's assume it wasn't. Let's suppose Blake said nothing or, at least, nothing that the judge felt was relevant to the sentencing:

 

There is currently strong popular sentiment against lawyers using frivolous lawsuits, "getting off on a technicality" has always been abhorred. If the judge thought Blake was just showing up hoping to get the case kicked due to the prosecutor being too busy that day, or just trying to get the fine kicked down $25, many people would feel that the judge would be justified to assess punitive damages on him for frivolous use of the courts. Think of it as a plaintiff in a frivolous lawsuit having to pay the court costs of the defendant.

 

Judges are smart people. I'm sure they can spot someone trying to play the system a mile away. They're not your run-of-the-mill powerless bureaucrat you can wheedle down just by wasting their time. If you're going before a judge, it's a good idea to make sure you have an actual reason to be there, and a reasonable argument.

 

They can also be arbitrary and capricious. Best not to treat going before them lightly.

[chucK]

This is kind of like a judge imposing a stiffer sentence on someone who doesn't voice regret for the crime they committed.

 

yeah...or exactly like

[mythosgrl]

Judges are smart people.

 

 

I'd bet you a lot of money that Blake is smarter than this guy was. Unfortunately for Blake, though, that did not matter in this case. The only thing the judge had on him was his level of authority- and used it to screw him.

 

In a court of law, authority > level of intelligence

 

Edited to add: Obviously hindsight shows that trying to justify the action in court was stupid and not particularly productive.

Edited October 5, 2007 by mythosgrl

[chucK]

Yes Blake does seem like a smart chap. But how is that relevant? Ted Kaczynski is a math whiz, but it's probably good he didn't win in court because of it.

 

...and yes, we did learn something here. School of hard knocks for sure

Edited October 5, 2007 by chucK

[G-spotter]

You can laugh and criticize Michael Jackson if you wanna

Woody Allen, molested and married his step-daughter

Same press kickin dirt on Michael's name

Show Woody and Soon-Yi at the playoff game, holdin hands

Sit back and just bug, think about that

Would he get that type of dap if his name was Woody Black?

O.J. found innocent by a jury of his peers

And they been fuckin with that nigga for last five years

Is it fair, is it equal, is it just, is it right?

Do you do the same shit when the defendents face is white?

 

I guess they do. Got any African blood Blake?

[Choada_Boy]

I'd bet you a lot of money that Blake is smarter than this guy was.

 

I'll bet you $250 that he's not smart enough to stay home and pay $50 instead of going to court and paying $250. Live and learn...

[Mark_Husbands]

"That is becasue they are paying staff to issue fines to pay for more staff. Of course they are not making money off of it. it is a way to bring in money to pay for staff."

 

This is not true. The park doesn't see fine money; there is no staff building incentive.

 

It is true that the court can assess a charge for the court costs, but it doens't sound like it in this case.

 

I actually haven't heard of a similar case. I brought a case before the magistrate once (back east) for running a sop sign, jumping out of his car screaming, "you can't stop me, I'm going to church!" (It was Sunday and I was working alone in my little park), then storming of leaving his car with me half parked in the road, and even in THAT case the judge accepted the Prosecutors (i.e. Ranger's) bail recommendation (which was a bit higher than Blake's).

 

Having worked several backcountry jobs, it was always made clear to me at the time of hire which offences were zero-tolerance and which weren't. For example, in on place illegal fires were a big deal and the Forest had been trying for a number of years to gain compliance on this. Signs everyhwere. Posters. Education. All the chance in the world to comply. So on that point, zero-tolerance (survival circumstances aside). But in the same area, there were times of year (shoulder season) or maybe mid-week where the quotas weren't surpassed, we had the flexibility to give a warning (verbal, I never liked those written warnings) for no permit if the person was receptive to the reasons for getting the permit. Similarly, I worked in a Park where one area was zero-tolerance for no-permit, but another was flexible. It depended on conditions. And noone ever said--issue more tickets Ranger. It just wasn't the Park culture anywhere I ever worked.

[Dannible]

I'm just making things worse for myself. I just got a $93 ticket for going 5 mph over on the freeway in a 60 zone. I was in a group of cars, not changing lanes at all, therefore not passing anyone, just going with the flow of traffic. Two cars passed me weaving through lanes going about 80 no more than a minute before I was pulled over. I asked if the cop saw them, and he said something like "well I was watching you, not them." He was pretty friendly about the whole thing, but I am still kind of bewildered as to why I got pulled over.

[sobo]

I just got a $93 ticket for going 5 mph over on the freeway in a 60 zone... ...but I am still kind of bewildered as to why I got pulled over.

 

Isn't it obvious to you by now??? The Man (and that includes the NPS) has detectors that pick up the pheromones of folks who could be classed as habitual law breakers. You are exuding huge amounts of this "flagrant law violation" pheromone, and it trips the shit out of their detectors. Then they just follow the indicator screen and home right in. So it's no wonder you keet getting busted.

[Dannible]

I think your right. Im gunna go ahead and just stay in my room for a few weeks, where I can't cause trouble.

[sobo]

Good move. Make sure you tape up the doors and windows real tight with Saran Wrap and duct tape. You don't want any of those 'mones sneaking out through the cracks. It'll bring Da Tool a-runnin' with citation pad & pencil in hand right into your fuckin' living room!.

[John_Scurlock]

I gotta stick up just a little for my friends at NCNP - yes, there is a bureaucracy, yes they are part of it, but yes, also, they are generally ordinary, good-intentioned folks like everyone else. They have been extraordinarily kind and helpful to me, even to the point of watching out for me when I was doing my thing HUNDREDS of miles from NCNP, in other parks, states, and even in another country, for that matter. And, at NO cost to me, I might add, but purely out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

I know, from my many conversations with them, that they have fought hard to make the permit process easy, including making it possible to 'self permit' after hours, in direct support to climbers. Is that possible in Grand Canyon, for example? I kinda don't think so. And they have fought hard to keep the permits free; just two years ago, they overcame efforts to impose a permit fee. This is a climber's park, for all practical purposes - the rangers know it, and they really do make a sincere effort to support it and keep it that way.

 

And most importantly, remember, no matter who you are, whether you support the permit process or not, whether you have a permit or not - if you get in trouble up there, wherever you are, even outside the park, they will spare NO effort to find you, to help you, to rescue you. I have seen it many times, believe me. That's why it's easy for me to support them in what they do, and not get too worked up about the bureaucratic side of things.

 

I once saw Kelly Bush carried around the flight traffic pattern at Concrete's airport on the end of a 150' cable suspended below a US Navy Chinook helicopter - several times. That's the kind of risk she would take to get to you to help you - and that was just for training.

[wayne]

Blake and Dan. I just started looking at this thread. It is very bum like what has happened here. So suck.

 

Yes. I have to prop Kelly. She and her husband came to my show and we had a great talk together. It left me wanting more time to talk with her. Very interesting and wise she seemed to be.

I know she has seen a trip report or two of mine that I didnt bother with a permit

Not like you guys are slamming the Park though

I was spouting Ntl. Park stats during part of the show so I am glad I was at least close to accurate. She coulda called me out on that.

I gotta reflect on a couple of times I went before a judge. Ok many times..

I learned pretty quick they are looking for a reason the bust you right in the short and curlies.

 

Edited October 6, 2007 by wayne1112

[TREETOAD]

How long is the jail time?

[Bug]

Sum it up.

Blake knowingly violated the permit law.

Blake got caught.

We only have Blake's side of the story about what happened between he and the ranger who issued the ticket and there are very few details.

Some people on this thread believe this one ranger stepped out of line by issuing this ticket.

Blake went to court by choice.

Blake admitted to the judge that he knowingly violated the law and explained in detail why he decided to do so.

The judge slammed Blake for knowingly violating the law.

Blake thinks this is unfair.

Some people on this thread are mad at the judge for imposing a larger than normal fine on Blake.

Some people on this thread think there should be no consequences for not following the permit laws.

Everyone agrees that the park should remain open for our general pleasure.

Some people on this thread believe the NCNP rangers are exceptionally good at what they do.

Some people on this thread say there has been a large turnover in Park Ranger personnel.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

[Dechristo]

I'm just making things worse for myself. I just got a $93 ticket for going 5 mph over on the freeway in a 60 zone.

 

...I am still kind of bewildered as to why I got pulled over.

 

Maybe the "Question Authority" bumper sticker?

[TREETOAD]

How long is the jail time?

[Dannible]

 

Maybe the "Question Authority" bumper sticker?

 

No, but there's no reason not to get one at this point. They're pretty well onto me now. No escape, might as well go down a Martyr.

[Cairns]

Sum it up.

 

The judge slammed Blake for knowingly violating the law.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Yes, the part where the judge explained to Blake why he increased the fine. If you punish someone you should leave them in no doubt about what they did wrong. A smart judge would have said a sentence or two to make it clear to Blake how he went $250 wrong instead of $60.

[rob]

Oh my god! He didn't get a free permit! Now their park use statistics are all wrong!

[Bug]

A smart judge would have said a sentence or two to make it clear to Blake how he went $250 wrong instead of $60.

Maybe he was purposely cryptic so that we would discuss it for 15 pages.

[Cairns]

A smart judge would have said a sentence or two to make it clear to Blake how he went $250 wrong instead of $60.

Maybe he was purposely cryptic so that we would discuss it for 15 pages.

 

Fear Uncertainty and Discussion. Better than the redundant Doubt. Bring on your TLAs.

[billcoe]

It seems to me that a substantive conversation would include whether these people should be doing this AT ALL. Not if the people doing it to us are necessarily good or bad.

 

This thread is the CC.com equivalent of Mr Cheswick saying "I want MY cigarettes, Nurse Ratched! I ain't no little kid! You can't hand just them out like candy. I want MY CIGARETTES!"

[ivan]

It seems to me that a substantive conversation would include whether these people should be doing this AT ALL. Not if the people doing it to us are necessarily good or bad.

 

This thread is the CC.com equivalent of Mr Cheswick saying "I want MY cigarettes, Nurse Ratched! I ain't no little kid! You can't hand just them out like candy. I want MY CIGARETTES!"

 

the key difference being though that cheswick was a doily-little fruit-fuck and i'm a big bull goddamn loon

 

ken kesey