Blackwater

[ZimZam]

Send lawyers, guns, and money. The shit has hit the fan.

[Serenity]

Maybe the Malaki government would be more productive if it wasn't trying to stick it's nose up Sadr's ass, instead of trying to screw the agencies who are actually trying to help them? How many insurgents have they publicly prosecuted?

 

I'm all for pulling out of Iraq and watching them tear one another apart one another apart in the vacuum.

[Adam13]

Maybe the Malaki government would be more productive if it wasn't trying to stick it's nose up Sadr's ass, instead of trying to screw the agencies who are actually trying to help them? How many insurgents have they publicly prosecuted?

 

I'm all for pulling out of Iraq and watching them tear one another apart one another apart in the vacuum.

 

I agree, they have earned it. They're killing each other now, why not let them kill each other with our troops safely at home.

[Serenity]

Apparently they all got smart, gave up their guns, and got law degrees. Sneaky Haji's!

[Crux]

The Age of Irresponsibility

How Bush has created a moral vaccum in Iraq in which Ameicans can kill for free -- by Michael Hirsh

 

"As anyone who has been in Iraq (like me) knows, on the ground the unspoken rule of Bush's counterinsurgency efforts over the past four years has been that almost all Iraqis, at least the males, are guilty until proven innocent. Arrests, beatings and sometimes killings at the hands of security firms and sometimes U.S. military units are arbitrary, often based on the flimsiest intelligence, and Iraqis have no recourse whatever to justice except in a few cases like Haditha. Imagine the sense of helpless rage that emerges from this sort of treatment. Apply three years of it and you have a furious, traumatized population. And a country out of control."

 

Published on Friday, September 21, 2007 by Newsweek

 

Editted by Crux at 11:15 to fix the Linky-link

 

[Serenity]

Security firms do not arrest Iraqi's, and Blackwater in particular does not engage in any program outside of strict government oversight, so lumping an article in on top of their pigpile is indicative of the blanket treatment/sensationalistic approach to dealing with issues that have permeated the increasingly irresponsible media/consumer user for years.

 

The irresponsibility is in this type of journalism. The focus SHOULD be on the corrupt and ineffective Iraqi government, but clearly there is a segment of the American population, just like during Vietnam that revels in rolling in shit. Perhaps it is all just indicative of a population that has no stomach for any real work.

 

How come there wasn't a big long thread on this website about the kidnap and murder of three American soldiers by Iranian trained operatives a few months ago? One of those young men's bodies has not been recovered and is listed missing. Where was all your indignation and judgment passing then?

[TREETOAD]

You can't start a fire

You can't start a fire without a spark

This gun's for hire

even if we're just dancing in the dark

[STP]

I see it as zapping some light and space into your brain cavity.

 

Wow! Instant enlightenment!!

[Crux]

Friday, September 21, 2007:

Blackwater resuming operations in Iraq

(CNN) -- "The security firm Blackwater USA is starting to resume normal operations in Iraq after a hiatus sparked by concerns among Iraqi and U.S. government officials over its actions...

 

Saturday, September 22, 2007:

Iraqi official says video shows Blackwater guards firing on civilians

BAGHDAD, Iraq(AP) -- "Iraqi investigators have a video tape that shows Blackwater USA guards opened fire against civilians without provocation in an incident last week in which 11 people died, a senior Iraqi official said Saturday. He said the case had been referred to the Iraqi judiciary...

 

Sunday, September 23, 2007:

Iraq: Blackwater staff to face charges

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- "The Iraqi government said it will file criminal charges against employees of security firm Blackwater USA who were involved a gun battle in Baghdad in which civilians were killed, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official said Sunday...

 

STORY HIGHTLIGHTS:

• Iraqi government to file charges against Blackwater staff, official says
  
• Iraqi government accuses Blackwater staff of shooting civilians to death
  
• Unclear how Iraqi courts will try to bring the contractors to trial
  
• U.S.-drafted Provisional Authority regulations shield contractors from Iraqi laws
  

Blackwater mercenaries employees over Baghdad

 

[Serenity]

Yeah? Did you notice all those stories are being spoon fed to you from Iraqi news conferences? Plus, WHAT are you really adding by posting links to stories on a subject you really know very little about?

 

Do you REALLY believe these men are guilty of a war crime and charges brought against them by the Maliki government? Have you been paying attention to anything I said regarding Maliki's open alignment with Al-Sadr? Al Sadr has ordered the murders of hundreds perhaps thousands of American service members via the Mahdi Army.

 

Do you know which side you are on?

 

Nice photo. I know those guys. I took this one myself in 2004.

 

 

[Fairweather]

Crux recently posted a little tantrum piece about me and my daughter - whom he has never met - that was quickly deleted by moderators. Fortunately, I managed to copy it before it went away and I now look forward to sending it to his DNC employers. It's only right that they should know the kind of little prick they're working with.

 

 

Just try to ignore the little shit stain.

[Serenity]

Another internet tough guy Fairweather? They tend to get rather shy and quiet in person.

[Fairweather]

 

 

"Iraqi investigators have a video tape that shows Blackwater USA guards opened fire against civilians without provocation in an incident last week in which 11 people died, a senior Iraqi official said Saturday. He said the case had been referred to the Iraqi judiciary...

 

 

I guess they can't produce the tape right now because it's being "edited"?? And exactly what are the new rules? Our guys have to take a bullet in the head before they're allowed to open fire? Get a life, stool.

[Crux]

[Dechristo]

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- "The Iraqi government said it will file criminal charges against employees of security firm Blackwater USA who were involved a gun battle in Baghdad in which civilians were killed, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official said Sunday...

 

 

[crackers]

The irresponsibility is in this type of journalism. The focus SHOULD be on the corrupt and ineffective Iraqi government, but clearly there is a segment of the American population, just like during Vietnam that revels in rolling in shit. Perhaps it is all just indicative of a population that has no stomach for any real work.

 

I've been trying to stay out of this, but I think I've got a point or two to make. Consider it another team kind of perspective. Thank you for your service. This is my personal opinion in the from of debate and exchange of opinion. I certainly do not intend offense.

 

The Iraqi gov't is a farce. The journo's i know covering this story include guys who've been imbedded since the Kuwaiti Pizza Expedition and are still around. They don't see the Iraqi gov't as much of a story because the perception of Americans, at home, is that the Iraqi gov't is a farce and the stories don't get read. In the market economy of news, if the stories don't get clicks, they don't get published as often. Actions by the US are held to a higher standard. We get judged by different standards, and personally, I'm fine with that. We're in a market economy for news as well as anything else; bitching about what the story should be and blaming somebody for reporting something else isn't helping. I see it as whining, whether it's done by a talking head on PBS or FOX or Indymedia, or any of my friends in an email. The basic fact is that the US media's readers have given up on reading about how shitty the iraqi gov't is. These readers still care about how good of a job we are doing. They still care about our national reputation and our ability to project our will. Personally, I see upside in that: I'm glad Americans still care about whether or not the US forces are doing a good job.

 

That said, I think that the news coverage of BW should be focused on State and DoD decisions that lead to this situation. Historically, the military was able to provide protection to diplomates and consular staff. I know that my MSG/MarDat question was a bit of a throw away, but I just don't see the need for real heavy operators to drive folks around*. There is a difference between response and protection. MSG - which I'm informed is now called MCESC - is a post WWII invention, but the armed services have historically protected State folks in times of war. From POTUS to FIREPLUG (scy labor), when cabinet level folks visit a country, you can expect to see MSG guys everywhere.

 

I recently got an email from a disgruntled friend of mine. The email pointed out that something like 3/4 of the REMF's in the US Army/Navy in WWII got fired in the year or so of the war because they were having a hard time adjusting to the new reality. We sure haven't seen that. To argue that "one of the military's core competencies is not VIP protection" as Scott did is both wrong in my opinion --show me a general without a driver and all the rest-- and outdated. Seperating these tasks creates chain of command distractions and blind spots. It's a waste of time and money and most importantly, lives. I know widows and I know dead guys because of the lack of communication between contractors and the military.

 

We're in a long term war, which I personally don't see ending much before I retire. I feel that State and DoD and others have screwed up massively on planning, adapting and responding to reality. It's not efficient to train operators and then rehire them from the private sector. We will need them for the next twenty years, and we need as many as we can train up. Whether the man power is tasked to civilian affairs teams, State protection details, or any of the myriad of other tasks these skill sets and personalities are required to accomplish, we need the manpower.

 

Finally, State and DoD's decisions here have created a horrific legal grey area where there shouldn't be one and created a PR problem that's not going to go away. We're giving our opponents a free pass to humiliate the USA and our forces, but I'm worried that we've actually delivered a free pass to legal prosecution. If the sh*t stained Iraqi gov't prosecutes anybody, it will be a disaster for all of our work.

 

I have no problem paying market rates to US soldiers, in fact I have a problem that we're not already. And don't let's talk about death benefits and health care and ...

 

Again, this is all my personal opinion, intended for debate not offense.

 

*I'm not implying that it's all driving around, or that driving and navigating is easy. I am making the rhetorical point that much of the skill set and training of the operators is wasted in the day to day of this role. But to support my point with an anecdote, the best driver I ever met is an old friend of mine who was the 2nd to last "chaffeur" for the last commander of the Berlin Brigade.

[olyclimber]

A6Z1tevub9I

[Serenity]

Graham,

 

Thanks for your input. No offense taken whatsoever, and I like debate. I just don't care for rabble rousing.

 

I don't believe the average American really understands just how ineffective the Iraqi government is, nor how duplicitous the Arab mindset is. Until you have encountered it, worked with it, lived with it, you'll never understand. It's like KNOWING up is up, and down is down, and when you try and tell them that they have a million boring anecdotal stories to confound your logic with. You would be better of talking to a brick wall.

 

They do this purposely to stall to better their position, and will continually, as demonstrated in the past, make concessions they have no intent of honoring. This has proven as fruitless for us, as it was during the Vietnam war. It simply allows the enemy time to regroup, and rethink its strategy. There are those who surmise Al-Maliki is working on Sadr's behalf, despite the fact that he exists due to our good will. He's truly a piece of excrement of the vilest kind.

 

This is what you are seeing in regards to this latest Blackwater event. Our enemy clearly understands that their is a paramilitary force multiplier in their midst, in the form of a contracted force, made up of highly trained and motivated individuals. They know they cannot defeat the US militarily, they understand they can win through PROPAGANDA. This is an example. They don't belong to any treaty organization and the thought of them now playing the card they are playing, as the Shiites are losing control, is nothing short of laughable. It's power politics. In the end, I highly doubt their will be the prosecution of anyone, and it will end up costing us, the taxpayer, more money. A lot of these contractors will be folded into expanded FED/LE roles, given full retirement, training they won't need, etc.

 

As far as the recent history of the dawning of close protection specialists. Long drawdown, mission curtailment, lack of foresight, lack of critical thinking, based in reality, federal law, etc. Long story short is partially this. Army CID was taken off the job of protecting Bremer because they were deemed incompetent to do the job. Their attitudes and demeanor, age, general lack of experience and firearms skills were not up to the tasking. It was painfully obvious to those of us who were on the ground at the time and observed this firsthand. The teams that were brought in did such a stellar job combined with an infrastructure, that fostered an environment of close cooperation.

 

Marine security guards stand fixed posts, and guard embassies. They were seen as under trained for mobile protection. This is not to say they couldn't be brought up to speed, not by any means. However, the size of the military going into this conflict was inadequate, and their just wasn't the time or the vision to get this training done. Furthermore, the bulk of experienced operational types had neared retirement, reached retirement, or left service during the Clinton presidency. Their was a huge vacuum of experience and talent that was all the sudden needed, and being a FAG (Former Action Guy) was all the sudden back in vogue. Many did not want to reenter the service, because the service lacks initiative.

 

I have personally made the statement that many of these types of positions can be folded back into a traditional system at the right time. The DoD and DoS is going to have to change in order for that to happen.

[tvashtarkatena]

Do you REALLY believe these men are guilty of a war crime and charges brought against them by the Maliki government? Have you been paying attention to anything I said regarding Maliki's open alignment with Al-Sadr? Al Sadr has ordered the murders of hundreds perhaps thousands of American service members via the Mahdi Army.

 

This is a non-argument. Whatever the Maliki government's complex alignments (thanks the chaos WE caused by our ill advised invasion, BTW), shooting civilians is illegal and not justified. Whether that actually occured remains to be seen. You know no more than anyone here about what really happened during this incident. We weren't there, and neither were you. Considering how low a value you place on the lives of Iraqis, from your statements on this website and others, your objectivity on this subject is suspect.

Edited September 24, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[Serenity]

Taken to PM.

[No. 13 Baby]

A6Z1tevub9I

 

White affirmative action at work.

 

I love when Tucker tries to defend this guy as anything more than a coddled rich simpleton.

[Jens]

Serenity. Thanks for shedding some light on Blackwater issue. Keep the posts coming.

[TREETOAD]

A6Z1tevub9I

 

White affirmative action at work.

 

I love when Tucker tries to defend this guy as anything more than a coddled rich simpleton.

 

You poor bastards....

[Serenity]

L. Paul Bremer wrote an article into the Iraqi Constitution exempting PMC's from prosecution under Iraqi law. Uncle Jerry was no dummy. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Al-Maliki. I seem to remember him being there during the days at the house of pain.

 

Hey Jens. Long time brother. We'll have to go bust up some line deckers in Lilooet soon. I know you crave logger/hockey player blood.

[Crux]

 

Bremmer is awarded the Presidential Medal of

Freedom, December 14, 2004