First Winter Ascent this Friday

[enelson]

and the rope off your bare back!!

[brian_m]

Wow...Tazz, thanks for the great links!!!

 

Jamin... I have to ask...

 

ARE YOU SPECIAL?

 

 

 

Oh yeah, don't forget your dulfersitz on your FWA.

[Rastus]

Jamin, you're dangerous man. You're going to pull some other noob into an epic and get the both of you killed. I think my biggest issue is that you overstate your experience level by a large margin without consideration for the consequences. I've followed your posts and trips over at NWHikers for the last year or so and have noticed the pattern of clumsy shenanigans in almost everything you do. Before calling yourself experienced or stating that you have "plenty" of it, get out and learn what you're doing and then practice it for 2 or 3 years. You are nowhere near the level you say you are right now. All that said, I like your ambition, just don't let it cloud common sense.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Rastus

[ericb]

.....After chopping and kicking steps for about thirty minutes, I was almost at the top of the ice slope. I had my hand in a spot where my foot needed to go and I kicked my foot in there without moving my hand. Now remember I was wearing crampons. A crampon point went entirely through my hand and out the other side. Immediately, I started bleeding profusely, and I stopped and tried to apply direct pressure to stop the bleeding. It would not stop though. After about thirty minutes, a member of the group behind me came up, and I asked him for some gauze.....

Just LOL at work and got busted for surfing.....this is some good stuff!

[pup_on_the_mountain]

Okay.. I think now is a good time to add my story.

 

I hooked up with Jamin for a trip a few months back. He even posted a humty-dory TR. What was missing from this TR

was the mental agony I was subjected to . A few days later, I bailed from a trip that I planned with dannible.

Getting desparate, Dan was looking for other partners. I felt obliged to warn him about Jamin though -

and here is what I wrote in a PM to dannible on 07/18/06:

 

 

Hi Dannible,

 

Saw a post by this guy Jamin asking you to join him for climbing

Glacier Pk. I wanted to give you a little warning about this guy.

 

I hooked up with Jamin for the first time through Cascadeclimbers.com

for climbing Dome Pk a couple of weeks back (see TR), and I have to

say that it was certainly not one of the better trips I've done,

mainly due to this guy. I've hooked up with some great people through

this web site, and Dome Pk is not all that

technical, and hence I did not have any doubts before deciding to

do this trip with Jamin. He is really strong, and moves

quite fast on trail. At the same time, he is rash and

inexperienced - one of those young bloods who want to just

bag the summit at all costs. I usually don't have a problem

with newbies (I was one myself some time back as well), and

I usually have loads of patience dealing with people,

especially on climbs (I teach as part of my work - have

handled enough painful and/or dumb kids otherwise as well).

Not only was Jamin quite inexperienced, he was always

looking to throw caution to the winds. And may be because I

was not as fast as him on the trail, he seemed to think that

I don't know jack-shit, and consistently refused to take

any of my opinions/advice into consideration. He almost

always wants to go off-trail if it looks like it'll save

some time. This by itself is not a problem, but I refused

to make an exposed 5.low traverse on a steep cliff with

my heavy pack on, and he did it almost just to prove a

point to me. And his reaction to my warnings was always a

nonchalant "you gotta get used to such things my friend!";

"I'm not gonna die if I fall here! Come on!", and such.

He was taking too many unwanted risks for my comfort level,

and I being the more experienced person in the team, was

constantly worrying what stupid adventure he'll get us into.

 

All that was on the approach hike - of course he was faster

and stronger than I. But then he wanted to set up camp right

under the line of rock and ice fall near the glacier. He had

absolutely no idea about what a safe place to camp in the

mountains should be. I breathed a sigh of relief when he

finally agreed to camp at the place I wanted us to.

 

We needed to rope up to climb the glacier, and this is where

I almost lost it. He was so fixed on getting to the top that

he didn't even let me check things out before we headed out.

As it turns out, that was the first time for him on

a glacier. I laid out the rope, he was tied in and waiting

to gun, and as soon as I said I'm ready, he starts glissading

in the most strange posture I've ever seen down

the snow slope (we camped on a ridge top)!! Mind you - we

both are roped up, and are both wearing crampons!!! I had to

hurry down and glissade a bit lest he not pull me down with

him. I tried to tell him he should never ever do such a

thing, and out comes the same phrases - "You should get used

to it my friend!!". I was really scared to be roped up with

him, but luckily, the glacier was quite mellow. Eager to

get to the top, he was almost tugging me up at times!

 

At the summit ridge, he had no idea how to do the final

knife-edge traverse. He has done ZERO rock climbing, and

was talking about climbing an over-hanging and flaring

hand-crack to the true summit! I tried to talk him out

of it, but again came the statement - "I won't die if I

fall here! But I MUST get to the summit at all costs!".

Luckily, the scramble (not the crack) was not all that bad, and I led the

way up. On our way down, when we were planning to rope

up again for the glacier, I learnt that he did not know

what a figure-8 knot is. God knows how he tied in on our

way up. Needless to say, he has zero knowledge of glacier

travel or crevasse rescue. I tried hard to put some safety

awareness into him, but his attitude was the same - "its not

all that big a deal my friend!".

 

There were other instances during the trip when I almost

lost it. I can confidently vouch that if it were any other

person in my place, he or she would've picked up a fight

with this guy and ended the trip within a few hours in.

On our hike out, he desparately wanted to set up a race

to the car with me, which I refused politely. Throughout

the trip, he wanted to prove that he was faster than me.

 

 

Once again, I've nothing personal against this guy. In fact,

I'm concerned that he'll land himself in trouble or get hurt

some day being this rash in the mountains. Everyone has to start

some time, and there is nothing wrong in being a newbie. But

the ONE THING a newbie must have is the willingness to

listen to a more experienced person, and Jamin had no

signs of the same.

 

I really wanted to post all I told you on the main forum,

but then I thought that'll not serve much of a purpose than

making him bitter. He's a pretty nice guy otherwise, but he

might well want to push for the summit under really fowl

weather. Just a heads up.

 

Sorry for the long message. You might be thinking whats

wrong with me . First I cancelled the Baker trip, and

now I'm trying to break another trip you're planning to do!

But after going on that trip with this Jamin, I'd rather

not have any other person suffer through the same.

 

Hope you find someone safe to go climbing with.

 

Cheers,

Bala

[brian_m]

Pup--- After reading your PM and the TR from the Dome Peak climb... the sad thing is that it just seems as though he (Jamin) has something to prove... whether it is to himself, or others; who knows. But, I am sure that after these last few posts, he will never find another partner on this forum.

 

Such a sad attitude to carry around in the mountains.

 

[ivan]

all will be well if only you'll remember to Bring Your Damn Tauntaun!

[fear_and_greed]

This guy and ARC really should get hooked up. What a team they'd make on Thermogenius.

[tazz]

WOW! Pup thanks for posting that. I was wondering what his partner's side of that trip report was.

[ericb]

Pup et al,

 

I think this thread has brought out some good points, but I'd like to go against the grain a little. Agreed that Jamin might lack experience, but I can't help but think that you need to take some personal responsibility as well for the Dome Peak fiasco. If you are picking a random partner off this board, you shouldn't assume anything about their experience. Why is it that you didn't know he'd never been on a glacier until you were roping up or after. Did you not quiz the guy on his experience before agreeing to go on the trip with him?

 

I generally climb with friends I'm familiar with, but did answer one random post on this site for a climbing partner this summer....glad I did as we had a great weekend, and he was a stud climber - much better than I. Before I agreed to climb with him, I researched his posts and got a feel for the types of climbing he had done....they pretty much spoke for themselves. Once meeting up, we discussed how long we had been climbing and climbs we had done. I was also very transparent about my ability level, and what I thought my comfort level would be both leading and following. Consequently, we picked out 3 WA-Pass routes that were adequately challenging for him, and within my abilities, and had a great trip.

 

Similarly, on another site I hooked up with a guy of ~ equal skill level and did a couple climbs...1 alpine, 1 day at index. Again, we talked in depth about our climbing and lead abilities and picked appropriate climbs...consequently we had 2 very successful outings.

 

If you get yourself half way up a mountain with someone who doesn't know what they are doing, barring outright dishonesty, it's probably as much your fault as theirs.

 

 

[DirtyHarry]

The mountains have a way of weeding out the retards.

[Weekend_Climberz]

My attitude is that I'll never go out with someone I have not climbed with unless it's a route I'm comfortable solo'n. I have no problem making the call on someone who is putting me in danger and simply intieing from the rope and heading up (or down) on my own. Hitch hiking back home isn't that dreadful, better than being tied to a frozen body.

[Bug]

Pup et al,

 

If you get yourself half way up a mountain with someone who doesn't know what they are doing, barring outright dishonesty, it's probably as much your fault as theirs.

 

 

You miss the point completely.

The newbie was unwilling to listen and work it out.

I have been climbing for a long time and still listen and learn. Those who do not, worry me.

A lack of willingness to compromise or collaborate on the part of a partner is enough for me to end a climb.

I have seen what can happen when one person thinks he or she knows what is best for a group or team and will not compromise. Usually the whole trip becomes a fiasco in an effort to pump the ego of one idiot. Or worse.

[RedNose]

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. ~Jim Horning

 

Good luck with all that nonsense. I've done plenty of stupid things in the winter and was lucky enough to live & learn from them. Hope you are too.

[ericb]

Pup et al,

 

If you get yourself half way up a mountain with someone who doesn't know what they are doing, barring outright dishonesty, it's probably as much your fault as theirs.

 

 

You miss the point completely.

The newbie was unwilling to listen and work it out.

I have been climbing for a long time and still listen and learn. Those who do not, worry me.

A lack of willingness to compromise or collaborate on the part of a partner is enough for me to end a climb.

I have seen what can happen when one person thinks he or she knows what is best for a group or team and will not compromise. Usually the whole trip becomes a fiasco in an effort to pump the ego of one idiot. Or worse.

 

I don't think I'm missing the point. There were at least two issues on the trip....one was a personality issue - that he was stubborn, foolish, and wreckless - what you address here, not much POTM could have done here but just turn around. The second was that he was very inexperienced......that could have be fleshed out well before the technical climbing commenced. It would seem that POTM had a bit of summit fever as well as he ignored all the warning signs and continued on to the summit with this guy....would you have?

[Weekend_Climberz]

I love bashing people while I know they're are gone out climbing for a few days.

[pup_on_the_mountain]

Eric,

Good point about taking responsibility for myself. When Jamin and I talked over the phone, he sounded more experienced than I. He said he'll bring the rope, prussiks etc. Well, I assumed that he knew what he was talking about. When we were driving to the trailhead, I started realizing that he had done more scrambling than technical climbing. Still, I did not get any doubts about his glacier travel skills. Since the climb itself was not all that technical, I thought I could show him a thing or two, if he did not know. Thats exactly the reason I did not debate too much about going on this trip with him. Like most people, I also discuss the levels of experience with partners whom I've not climbed with before. Jamin was outright rash in his ideas and in the things he did. Most sane people would listen to their climbing partner(s), and would be willing to turn back if things were not going well in a climb. May be I should have gotten a written statement from him beforehand, affirming that he would do the same on this trip!

 

I would've checked him out, and may be even not gone on to the summit from our high camp, if I had got the chance to check him. Honestly, I did not want to start a fight with him as we drove in his car to the trailhead!

 

Well into the trip, he said all he knew about prussiks is that they are used in glacier travel - he did not know how they are used. If we were not doing the trip in two days, I would've shown him at least the basics of crevasse rescue. There are more spicy details from the trip that I did not mention in the PM. He forced me to go out of the way just so that he can look into a "bottomless" crevasse. He then said he wanted to practise arresting a falling partner on a rope. I obliged, and slid down ever ready to arrest myself. Of course he stopped me. But then, he wanted to test if I could arrest him! Even before I could tell him I needed no damn practice, he was already flying past me. So, he was about 50 ft above me on a 45 degree-ish slope, and I barely managed to arrest him after he pulled me off my stance with all the speed that he gained flying down!

 

I can recall more spicy incidences from that trip. The point is this though - when you hook up with a stranger through CC.com, do you think about asking him/her whether he/she will take unwanted risks such as glissading with crampons on when they are roped up with you? What more stupid things can you put on your check list? Of course, its always best to climb with your regular partners. But as it happens many times, planned trips are cancelled in the last minute (as it happened with me that time for the July 4 weekend). The least you would expect people to do is to be honest about their experience levels and abilities.

 

I do agree, though, that it was partly my fault to hook up with him, and thats exactly why I did not post these details for several months (even after Jamin posted the TR here). But, I think I ought to warn people now that he's planning on doing even more crazy things. I talked to the guy (Sunil) whom Jamin made do body rappels on his very first climb (see link posted by tazz earlier), and he was shit-scared. Its quite likely that some other newbie will be the scapegoat this time as well, since most experienced people will not hook up with Jamin. Thats exactly the point of my rant here (as bug pointed out). He does not have the "experience" that he claims he has.

 

I'm not complaining about my experience on Dome pk itself - in fact, I look at it as a learning experience . I did not take any of the unwanted risks that Jamin took (like free soloing 5.5 with a heavy pack and boots), and felt safe myself most of the way (except when we were roped up). At the same time, I was honestly concerned that I might have to hike out and call for a helicopter to fetch his injured (or dead) ass out.

[Bug]

Life is not that simple.

Uncompromising people are not always "totally honest" about their abilities or intentions. Some people just do not pay attention to what they are saying. And so forth.

 

The point is, "use caution with this guy." He has made one trip with one climber who reports a lack of good sense and no signs of having had any remorse or consideration for the concerns of a teammate.

Since I put in a post encouraging this guy before I knew anything about him, I feel responsible for balancing that out.

The post that "trashed" him was not originally posted openly which displays some common sense compromising.

The entire thread should try not to trash the guy without some constructive criticism. That would be, "listen and learn from others". The summit will be there next time. The skills to climb more chanllenging summits will only come with the patience to learn the skills that prevent injuries and deaths.

 

[ericb]

Eric,

Good point about taking responsibility for myself. When Jamin and I talked over the phone, he sounded more experienced than I. He said he'll bring the rope, prussiks etc. Well, I assumed that he knew what he was talking about. When we were driving to the trailhead, I started realizing that he had done more scrambling than technical climbing. Still, I did not get any doubts about his glacier travel skills. Since the climb itself was not all that technical, I thought I could show him a thing or two, if he did not know. Thats exactly the reason I did not debate too much about going on this trip with him. Like most people, I also discuss the levels of experience with partners whom I've not climbed with before. Jamin was outright rash in his ideas and in the things he did. Most sane people would listen to their climbing partner(s), and would be willing to turn back if things were not going well in a climb. May be I should have gotten a written statement from him beforehand, affirming that he would do the same on this trip!

 

I would've checked him out, and may be even not gone on to the summit from our high camp, if I had got the chance to check him. Honestly, I did not want to start a fight with him as we drove in his car to the trailhead!

 

Well into the trip, he said all he knew about prussiks is that they are used in glacier travel - he did not know how they are used. If we were not doing the trip in two days, I would've shown him at least the basics of crevasse rescue. There are more spicy details from the trip that I did not mention in the PM. He forced me to go out of the way just so that he can look into a "bottomless" crevasse. He then said he wanted practise arresting a falling partner on a rope. I obliged, and slid down ever ready to arrest myself. Of course he stopped me. But then, he wanted to test if I could arrest him! Even before I could tell him I need no damn practice, he was already flying past me. So, he was about 50 ft above me on a 45 degree-ish slope, and I barely managed to arrest him after he pulled me off my stance with all the speed that he gained flying down!

 

I can recall more spicy incidences from that trip. The point is this though - when you hook up with a stranger through CC.com, do you think about asking him/her whether he/she will take unwanted risks such as glissading with crampons on when they are roped up with you? Of course, its always best to climb with your regular partners. But as it happens many times, planned trips are cancelled in the last minute (as it happened with me that time for the July 4 weekend). The least you would expect people to do is to be honest about their experience levels and abilities.

 

I do agree, though, that it was partly my fault to hook up with him, and thats exactly why I did not post these details for several months (even after Jamin posted the TR here). But, I think I ought to warn people now that he's planning on doing even more crazy things. I talked to the guy (Sunil) whom Jamin made do body rappels on his very first climb (see link posted by tazz earlier), and he was shit-scared. Its quite likely that some other newbie will be the scapegoat this time as well, since most experienced people will not hook up with Jamin. Thats exactly the point of my rant here. I'm not complaining about my experience on Dome pk itself - in fact, I look at it as a learning experience .

 

POTM....you totally did the right thing in posting this TR, and I think you did it with the best intentions. It may well keep someone safe. It's probably not right for me to second guess what type of due-dilligence you went through on the trip. I didn't intend to flame you at all, and hope you don't take it the wrong way. I think the discussion that arose on the thread was very valuable as many have and will continue to use this board to find partners. I more wanted to point out that the responsibility for communication lies with both partners, not bash you.

 

I've done some stupid things, and specifically have been guilty of masking my lack of experience with a climbing partner and it contributed to a very long day on the West Ridge of Forbidden Peak. We had a good civil debrief and discussion afterwards, I paid for some classes, and we've since had some great climbs together - lesson learned.

[kurthicks]

That would be, "listen and learn from others". The summit will be there next time. The skills to climb more chanllenging summits will only come with the patience to learn the skills that prevent injuries and deaths.

 

I agree 100% with everything that has been said in this post. I hope that Jamin will take this advice and banter seriously and return to Pullman safely this spring, where he has the opportunity to begin to learn new skills and techniques, to gain much needed experience, under the careful eye of more experienced climbers at the WSU Alpine Club.

[telemarker]

The mountains have a way of weeding out the retards.

 

and directing them to CC.Com.

[Weekend_Climberz]

I am not a weetard.

 

[telemarker]

If no one bites on Jamin's offer, I have another FWA idea...care to come with?

 

 

 

[ericb]

You can't see the gaters, but they are there

[Bug]

Thanks for the TR guys but that's a different forum.

 

 

 

 

Yuk, yuk, yuk,