jon Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 I HEAR THE ROFL COPTER CAN FLY IN WHITEOUTS AND 80 MPH WINDS OMFGLOLROFLMAO!!!
Dechristo Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 DeChristo, Do you have anything thoughtful to add to this post? I believe I am providing a valuable "thoughtfulness", apparently beyond your comprehension, by showing, in concert with others here, the lack of validity and authority in your question of competence of the rescuers. I'm sure this knowledge is valuable, particularly to the stranded climbers relations and loved ones, and so, indirectly to the stranded climbers themselves. This is much more constructive than your doubtful speculations.
hawkeye69 Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) there is some video on katu. some of it looks pretty nuclear (i think near cooper spur) but some of it in the trees looks pretty mellow. probably the way it is. but big new wave comin your way with winds of 65 mph in willamette valley... this site is linked on kgw.com, fyi Edited December 14, 2006 by hawkeye69
ryland_moore Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) Jon, we are all trying to think of ways to get these guys off the mountain. A lot off people from here would try and lend a hand and volunteer. You may know what it is like in a heavy storm on Denali just as many of us do, but going up on Hood right now, in my opinion, is as close to a death wish as I can think of. 7,000' may be raining and 35 F, but you are forgetting what the windchill factor would be (does not have an effect on precip., remember). At 80 mph sustained (which is what they are calling for today and tomorrow) equates to around 10 F with windchill. Assuming that temps drop an average of 10 degrees/1,000' and you are looking at -5F on the summit which equates to -43 F with windchill on the summit. I am not denying your claims, but you cannot talk to someone in 80 mph winds. You cannot yell to them right next to you, let alone hear someone else with a bull horn or such. Even the most experienced climbers who know Hood like the back of their hands would have no idea if they were about to walk of the summit ridge in a white out due to the snow conditions and how cornices have built up over the last week. The summit ridge could be a lot larger from leeward loading or the cornices could have naturally collapsed. The bottom line is, I think it is suicide, no matter what the temps are. Coupled with the high avy conditions, it doesn't matter what route you take when there are natural avis going off everywhere. The S. Side naturally slides in several places. Would you be willing to walk on loaded slopes in a whiteout and hearing natural slides all around you in 80 mph winds? I don't know a single person who would be willing to risk so much and I doubt the families of the missing climbers would want others to potentially die trying to find their loved ones. The fact of the matter is that it is simply too dangerous to go up there when chances are so slim of finding anything and chances are so great for another accident to occur. I am usually of your same mentality in that desperate times calls for desperate measures, but unfortunately, I feel that what you propose is beyond desperate and does venture into the realm of craziness. Keep 'em coming though and keep the climbers and all who are helping in your prayers. As for age, I wouldn't use that as a judgement. Most of the guys on PMR I know are in their late 20s to late 30s and all are super strong climbers, backcountry skiers, and have climbed much more technical routes than the West Butt. Since you have never been on the N. Side, picture the steepest section of the W, Butt between 14 and 16k, but in a white out with some rock that is not solid like on Denali and is 2-3 times steeper (around 80 degrees in some steps and averages 55 degrees, with spindrift aqnd natural avis coming down from 2,000 ft above and tell me if they are comparable. I am sorry. I have been on both and they are not..... Edited December 14, 2006 by ryland_moore
griz Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 DeChristo, Do you have anything thoughtful to add to this post? I believe I am providing a valuable "thoughtfulness", apparently beyond your comprehension, by showing, in concert with others here, the lack of validity and authority in your question of competence of the rescuers. I'm sure this knowledge is valuable, particularly to the stranded climbers relations and loved ones, and so, indirectly to the stranded climbers themselves. This is much more constructive than your doubtful speculations. dechristo...cheers.
wfinley Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) A few years ago I was caught in a storm while descending Mt. Blackburn in the Wrangells. I've never seen anything like it - the winds were howling at a sustained 50+ mph and the ridge was literally disintegrating beneath our feet. After fighting our way down for 3000' we couldn't take it anymore and bivied in a snowcave. If the weather is even remotly close to what we experienced then I could never wish for another party to come to our aid; ave conditions were far too dangerous and the wind was unreal. Our night in the snowcave was sobering; luckily the weather cleared and we were able to pick our way down to high camp. I can only imagine what those guys are thinking right now. (edited to be nicer) Edited December 14, 2006 by wfinley
ClimbingPanther Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 it seems like a rather finite area As for avoiding the avalanche danger, with that level of wind, couldn't someone get up the leeward side of the ridge? Thanks for the laughs. OK, I don't mean to be a jerk at all, but before you get indignant over someone else's lack of apparent Hood-knowledge, know that you're being eyed with the same uncertainty. Honestly, I did roll around pretty much all of the exact same thoughts that have been posted here, and some are very good ideas, but it all boils down to two things for me: 1-with the extreme avy danger and continuing snow, it's completely foolhardy to be moving around just about anywhere high on that mountain. OK, you might think you're safe on wind-swept bulletproof snow (which by the way would likely not be on the leeward side), but what's above you? You don't have a clue about its stability, even if you could see it. The cooper spur route ~10-10.5K is where they are supposedly assuming the one climber is, which is typically on the lee side and could be one of the most avy-prone faces on the entire mountain right now. I wouldn't be on that face right now unless it was my mom up there. 2-even if you were to get high on the mountain, think about the likely scenario. If you are fortunate enough to come within a couple hundred yards, whoopee! What do you think you're going to hear, short of an atomic blast, in such fierce wind with who knows how many layers over your ears? Maybe if you come within 50 feet, MAYBE you might hear something. This is all assuming that the person is alive and capable of belting out a terrific roar for the SAR folks to hear. To put yourself in such a seriously life-threatening situation with little hope of actually finding the cave-dwelling rescuee does not sound like reason to me.
ClimbingPanther Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 I HEAR THE ROFL COPTER CAN FLY IN WHITEOUTS AND 80 MPH WINDS OMFGLOLROFLMAO!!! My favorite post to date And all of this despair about the climbing conditions hopefully does not discourage those who care about these climbers. A snow cave protects nicely from things a climber on the surface would have no chance in.
griz Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 If the weather is even remotly close to what we experienced then I could never wish for another party to come to our aid... now that IS a worthy topic. The guys trapped up there are experienced climbers and understand the stakes involved. Any climber worth his weight in blue bags would not want someone else... a person with family,friends and a life beyond climbing to get killed in their search. I would rather die then have the expectation of someone else taking suicidal risks to look for me.
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 Ryland Moore, Where were you 55 posts ago? We could have avoided all this ad hominem my penis is bigger than yours crap! Your answer is exactly what I was looking for all along. I never stated that conditions were a certain way, I ASKED if they were. Unfortunately, all the swinging donkeys have to turn it into a throw down...god! I hate friggin climbers! lol I was not aware that you are required to post your entire climbing resume here in order to ask a question. As for your description and assessment of the situation, you have me almost 100% convinced of the logic. The temperature thing I am still having a hard time with, but with all the other distinct objective hazards, the decision would clearly be a no-brainer of not to go up. It is hard to assess that from news reports where they are standing in the rain 4,000' below these guys. It would appear the conditions were not that severe, but your first hand knowledge of the combined concerns and the big picture make it a lot easier to see what's really going on there. BTW, the rock ain't so stable on Denali anymore since global warming..at least the stuff glued into the ice, that is..one person was killed near Windy Corner, I believe, from falling granite a few years ago, as I am sure you already know. thanks again for knowing what the hell you're talking about and sharing that with me/us.
ryland_moore Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Jon, I think most of the guys posting do know what they are talking about, they are just also experts at Spray sometimes as well. Unfortunately you were indoctrinated into the CC.com community. Sorry it had to be on such a serious note. Maybe they will go easy on ya next time. As for rock quality on Denali, yeah that was a sad freak accident, but I'll take loose granite over volcanic choss/mud any day! Keep the climbers in your prayers tonight. I am sitting out here in Pullman right now for work and the winds have been howling so bad. Flying out here today was a somber moment as I gazed over at hood flying up the Gorge and seeing a big cloud bank over Hood. Not a defined lenticular like you see when you have clear weather around it but very eerie looking as if the mountain looked like a big hill whcih was really all cloud.....weird...
ClimbingPanther Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) jonmf76, you sound offended, but read your first post again and tell me it doesn't sound the least bit presumptious... Expect spray and condescension as a natural response to perceived presumption of any degree. It's kinda like a law of the universe or something. Oh yeah, and repeatedly proclaiming your disdain for climbers on a site called "cascadeclimbers" is a SURE way to validate your incorrect perception that climbers are mostly jerks nowadays. Edited December 14, 2006 by ClimbingPanther
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 Ryland, I long ago gave up paying attention to the windbags you meet in the climbing world. Nowadays they all just seem to be gym rats, at least in the area where I am now, and it seems harder and harder to find people who've actually been in those conditions and can make an intelligent climbing decision based on so many experiences you don't count anymore. This is why I am not a member of these kinds of sites. Frankly, I'd rather be doing the stuff rather than sitting around talking about it. And yes, I agree with you on the weather. It has an eerie feel to it. You can just feel that it is ugly extreme weather. This recent weather pattern has that kind of serious deep feel to it, unlike just passing storms...in fact it reminds me of the la nina storms we faced on Denali in '96. They came every 2 days the entire time I was there. It was brutal. I put off a Shasta climb a couple of weeks ago because the atmosphere just had that major unstable feeling about it..I am glad I did. This is bad, bad weather. I am unable to not think about what these guys are facing right now. I picture my own body in a snow cave, like that one at about 16,200' on Denali and try to enter into that picture the wind and spindrift and loading going on there now..it is not a pretty picture. It gives me chills in my marrow. While I don't pray, I do believe in hope. As far as 'experts' go, I don't really believe in them. They frequently tend to be self-appointed. I just think there are people with lots of experience and those with less. After a while, you start to see who has actually been there and who is just talking smack about being there. Unfortunately, the world of climbing seems disproportionately smack anymore. I miss the days of wool....
ryland_moore Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Well I know two posters you'd get along with! Look up Dwayner (Raindawg is another avatar) and Pope! ANyway, there are climbers of all types on this site. Newbs to people like Beckey and Joe Josephson and other hardcores post on this site and you would never know who you are talking to. Sportos to hard-core trad. Those that only alpine and those that only TR. You get the whole lot and it makes it more interesting and you get to hear about some amzing climbs. The best thing is that it brings all of us, no matter what our climbing level or ability, together in situations such as this. The power of the internet, I guess. But don't write it off so quickly, read the trip reports sections, especially in better weather, and think before you post, because although I knew what you were trying to ask, it did come off a little holier than thou. I know those weren't your intentions, but we all know how sending stuff via internet is harder to express than in person. I bet if you met griz and DeChristo, you'd have a great day out climbing with them. Come to a rope up at Smith and Leavenworth and see if that changes your opinion about these guys/gals - damn, maybe I should be in Cafe Sensitivo? Don't worry, I had to go through it as well when I first started coming here. People thought I was in my 50's because I came off as a crotchety old fart, when in reality I was in my mid-20s!
Choada_Boy Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 I just got back from the summit, solo, despite 100mph winds, three feet of new snow, total darkness, and white-out conditions. I simply climbed on the leeward side of the ridge, strapped my pile of XGKs to the arms and legs of my down suit, turned them up to full blast, and melted myself a cozy trail to the top, like real climbers do in Alaska. I left some Ketchikan hard-tack, my slab of AK state-issued back bacon, and an iron skillet on the top, just in case. Didn't see a goddamn thing. Jon: You come off like a tool. Best to keep your fingers still and be thought a fool than to type out your poorly timed and ill- informed drivel and remove all doubt. Try this key sequence in the future before you post: Ctrl-A, Ctrl-X
Choada_Boy Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Jon, Do you have a dog? My thoughts exactly!
mtn_mouse Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 jon, You've got three very experienced climbers on the mountain, with the supreme motivation of trying to save their own lives, but they have not been able to come off the mountain in five or so days. What makes you think you can waltze up to the summit?
W Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 The temperature thing I am still having a hard time with, but with all the other distinct objective hazards, the decision would clearly be a no-brainer of not to go up. It is hard to assess that from news reports where they are standing in the rain 4,000' below these guys. It would appear the conditions were not that severe, First of all,if the freezing level jumped all the way to 7000' after so much new snow, that sounds like a recipe for extreme avy hazards. Moreover, I can tell you that the worst conditions for trying to effect a rescue (or just trying to go climbing...) on peaks like this is leaving from the parking lot in a cold rain and climbing up into high winds and subfreezing conditions. I would vastly prefer that it were snowing at all elevations, even if it were 0 degrees F, than to get soaked in the rain then climb into a blizzard up higher. The conditions on the Cascade volcanoes in winter storms like these are easily enough to put anyone's life in jeopardy, so Jon, while your question is understandable I think you should assume that everyone is doing the best that can be done, and, that the above mentioned adage about not placing undue risk upon rescuers is- rightfully- embedded deep in the minds of all SAR personnel.
ZimZam Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 This is why I am not a member of these kinds of sites. Frankly, I'd rather be doing the stuff rather than sitting around talkin. Then strap up, get off ur arse, and get to steppin.
ExtremoMtDude Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 I HEAR THE ROFL COPTER CAN FLY IN WHITEOUTS AND 80 MPH WINDS OMFGLOLROFLMAO!!! I rode in one of those up in Alaska while RIPPING IT UP in the backcountry!
olyclimber Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Extremely classic stuff. Hopefully the NYT gets a hold of this thread and gets "K2 Jon" in for an exclusive. Maybe he can solve that problem in Iraq too. Hoping the best for those on Hood today.
Fromage Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.
Mr_Phil Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 They said it is raining at 7000' tonight. That doesn't sound too impossible to me, but then again, what do I know? What it's like right now.
rbw1966 Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Jon-- I think everyone's reaction is based on the tone of the thread title as well as your posts. While the questions you pose are valid, and may very well be ones we are all quietly thinking, the way you posed them comes across as arrogant and uncaring. The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim yourself. I like to think I know that mountain fairly well and there's no way I would head up there in 80 mph winds and zero visibility. The temp argument is a red herring--with all that snow blowing around and avy loading it would be incredibly dangerous and as others have pointed out, nearly impossible to find anyone dug in. Cheers to all the people involved in trying to rescue those men. I know if I was them I wouldn't want anyone heading up in these conditions for my sorry carcass.
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