Traditional Workouts=Ice Climbing Strength?

[scottgg]

So I'm wondering what the correlation is between ice/alpine climbing ability and performance in traditional exercises like pullups pushups ect. I know technique plays a huge role, but what are your experiences/anecdotes/ or anomilies you have seen.

For example: a wizened ice climber once told me if you can do 15 good pullups and cant climb WI4, then its your technique that needs work not your strength.

Thoughts?

[NYC007]

here is one of the best answers I have found, that to Gravsports.com :

 

Example: In 1992 I became convinced that good climbers were strong climbers, hence I needed to be strong. After spending months in the weight room I could do a one-arm pull up with 25 pounds in the other hand and many other stunts that definitely made me very strong. My climbing improved perhaps a letter grade or two, which was positive. I then went to France, where I won several pull-up contests, often by miles. Some of these climbers were pathetic, barely able to do ten pull-ups, and these were the best in the world! Then I noticed that I was getting my ass kicked in the competitions, finishing low in the field despite being stronger than most anyone there. At the crags the French were climbing much harder routes onsight than I was capable of climbing with a lot of falls. Something was not right. One night in a bar a top euro climber was expounding on why the French were so good: "We have the best rock in the world. We climb more than anyone else. And we have the best wine." In one sentence he restructured my entire world view of climbing: To become a better climber you simply must climb more. A week later I watched Francois LeGrande onsight a route harder than anything I had ever climbed. Francois had never touched a weight, but god could he move. I resolved to learn how to move. After six months of doing nothing but climbing and studying climbing movement, I onsighted a route harder than anything I’d ever redpointed. So forget weights, strength, supplements, learn how to move and your body will develop the strength necessary for the movements.

Comments from Will Gadd at gravsports.com

[TBay]

Example: In 1992 I became convinced that good climbers, they climb strong...French were so good: "We have the best rock in the world. We climb more than anyone else. And we have the best wine."...forget weights, strength, supplements, learn how to move and your body will develop the strength necessary for the movements. (Comments from Will Gadd at gravsports.com)

 

i think he's discovered a new training secret since 1992.

 

November 1, 2006 Will Gadd posted:

 

...I'm into doing the Cross Fit workouts when I'm in a general training cycle, this qualifies as I sure as hell can't train specifically for mixed climbing...(Comments from gravsports.blogspot.com)

 

he's become a poster boy for Crossfit.

[fern]

technique is the efficient application of the strength you have. more strength = more opportunity for technique. why would anyone want to be a weakling just so they could brag about technique? better to brag about both.

[NYC007]

I of all people see benifits in training climbing and in the gym but I felt this blurb may give some insight that you can do 100 pull up but still need to climb alot..I mix crossfit with a a few hrs a week drytooling in the winter with a few specific exercises to ice climbing thrown in.

[Farrgo]

Climbing without training is better than training without climbing. That's a given. What Gadd doesn't point out is that even though some climbers con't touch weights he still wicked strong. I've watched Gadd climb and he throws figure four to figure four, hangs casually off of only one arm, and locks off like a champ. So he's obviously strong. Technique can go a loooong way, but it eventually comes down to strength.

[dbconlin]

My 2 cents:

 

While climbing is the best way to get in shape for climbing, weight training IN ADDITION to climbing gets you even stronger than climbing alone, and if you are still doing a lot of climbing, your technique can improve simultaneously. When life circumstances or weather may prevent you from climbing, you can maintain and/or improve strength which will leave you better off than if you did nothing. Additionally, if the type of climbing you do depends a lot on fitness as opposed to being able to climb a technically hard route (e.g. mountaineering, some alpine climbing), gym training may be even more important to you.

[Chad_A]

So, then, what's a good way to weight train without ruining your climbing days? Low reps, high weight? The opposite? Just keep at it so long your body adjusts, and suffer through the tired days of climbing?

[Farrgo]

I try to make sure to weight lift after I climb. That way I'm still fresh for climbing. Of course, my weight lifting suffers (not that I care). Don't plan on lifting and climbing hard at the same time. Save lifting for the off seasons (late fall after rock before ice, early spring after ice before rock)

[dbb]

with (too?) many sports, there is never an off season!

vw- I like to work endurance in any way I can while training at the gym. Boulder, lead (for the mind games), don't hurt your fingers, then do lots of reps with medium weight working all sorts of muscles (for balance) after climbing. The worst thing you can do for your shoulders is a bazillion pullups. do some, but not a bazillion. Just a rotator cuff injury waiting to happen.

[eric8]

I think the limiting factor for most pnw ice climbers is access getting enough solid days out on the media. In general we all have horrible technique, look at the photos in the cc.com photo gallery if you want proof. When I led my first pitch of grade 5 ice I could do 12-13 strict pullups. Now i can do double the number of pullups but can't lead any harder. Or look at the fitness requirements mentioned in Glad's book to be a competent wi5 leader, not that difficult.

 

That said climbing alpine and ice routes in winter tends to be physically demanding so I like to do crossfit twice a week, thow in a little extra cardio, pullups, core strength exercises and a session or two on the plastic plus climbing on weekends...

[PaulB]

Between Gadd's Ice & Mixed Climbing and Twight's Extreme Alpinism, the subject of weight training for ice & alpine climbing is pretty well covered.

[dmuja]

So, then, what's a good way to weight train without ruining your climbing days? Low reps, high weight? The opposite? Just keep at it so long your body adjusts, and suffer through the tired days of climbing?

 

 

I think the point of training is so you eventually DONT ruin your climbing days by pumping out.

 

To get ther though, in the process of training, you will have to "pump out" to make progress. High reps and little weight does not significantly increase strength. The point in training then is to exhaust yourself/strength, then rest/recover, then exhaust, then rest/recover, etc... Each time (or nearly each time) you "exhaust", you push it a little bit harder to get to that exhaustion. This requires smart (to avoid injury) and heavy lifting/pulling.

 

Durring the training process your muscles will be tired alot, but in a different way than when youre out of shape. You will find your self able to "push it farther" and you will get stronger even though sometimes you will still "think" or "feel" like your muscles are tired. I have found that you really can't tell how your muscles will perform (in training or in climbing) until you actually are working them. Sometimes I thought I was wasted and not recovered and bamm, ended up crankin it out. Other times I felt rested and found I had nothing.

 

Generally I believe its best to set particular goals according to the calendar and "cycle" up to meet those goals. IE, train hard and "peak out" at the right time for a particular climb or season. The key is to set goals and keep meeting them to (which in turn) keep your interest up enough to keep training and thus keep improving. You gotta find ways to *like* the process if you want to really make progrees. Any way, my own schedule is - at this time of year - to be heavy on the training and lite on the climbing so the cycle is near the begining (seasonally speaking). But Im not "locked in" to that. With a base level of fitness already achieved I could easily adjust the cycle at any point for any goals that come up given a short or apropriate amount of notice.

 

Just for example, I am currently on this schedule:

 

Sun - cardio & stretching

Mon - Heavy lifting/pulling & cardio n stretching

Tue - stretching

Wed - lite lifting/pulling & cardio & stretching

thur - stretching and climbing

fri - Heavy lifting/pulling & cardio n stretching

sat - have a beer day - Maybe some climbin too

 

Now if I wanted to be "peaking" for climbing right now I would have cycled up to that and would probly *NOT* be doing 2 days a week of heavy lifting. I would make sure that my muscles were "lactic acid free" (ie totally recovered) come time to do the climb. So I might then take out one of the "heavy lifting/pulling" days or sub it with a lite lifting day and probly add more climbin and stretching.

 

To sum up;

* You gotta lift heavy to get stronger.

* You CAN and should get smart about training and use cycling/peaking methods.

* If you do, you can work weight training in with your climbing just fine without hurting your climbing - infact it necessarily WILL improve your climbing.

* Train for ballance (core and cross train etc) and don't just do pull ups or weighted (lat) pull downs. You use your entire body to climb and should be training it in total or you will have weaknesses and injuries.

* Finally, DONT injure your self by lifting/pulling too heavy or too much. It can take months to acustom your joints ligiments, tendons, etc, to taking on heavy weights and active recovery (ie "rest") periods are essential.

 

I know the thread is originally pertaining to "ice climbing" but the subject of weight training for climbing in general has come up more than once lately so I stretched it a bit - sorry if I ...

 

PS - dmuja has been training with weights and other stuf like yoga thru many different sport/disciplines for quite a few years - since my teens.

[dbconlin]

The worst thing you can do for your shoulders is a bazillion pullups. do some, but not a bazillion. Just a rotator cuff injury waiting to happen.

 

Well said. I had a surgery last year, resulting in inactivity and consequent out-of-shape-ness. I was so psyched to get back into it that I started doing pull ups as soon as I could and ended up hurting my rotator cuff, which put me out of hard climbing for even longer. Sucky!

[Weekend_Climberz]

All this talk about training this training that. That's great, but to really get what you want out of it, you have to combine it with a good diet. Otherwise, you will plateau because your body doesn't have what it needs to keep up with itself.

 

[Edited] I suck at spelling, so what

Edited November 16, 2006 by Weekend_Climberz

[nordicpunk]

"I think the point of training is so you eventually DONT ruin your climbing days by pumping out.

 

To get ther though, in the process of training, you will have to "pump out" to make progress. High reps and little weight does not significantly increase strength." -dmuja

 

-sorry I messed up the quote thing

Strength is a very vague term. Be careful with the "heavy weight training." constant heavy lifting will lead to hypertrophy (muscle mass)- this is not your goal. You can add power with out adding mass by keeping the reps between 5-8 per set, ~3 sets. lower reps than this will be doing you no favors. Endurance lifting is fine but I would say thats where climbing comes in. Use climbing as a specific strength workout and focus your weight training around the 5-8 rep limit. Maybe add a circut workout once a week where you do 1 min of 20-30 exercises- no rest in between. Otherwise I think dmuja has very good points on what your training should look like.

Edited November 17, 2006 by nordicpunk

[BillA]

Instead try doing the Crossfit WOD for a month and witness the magic. Then add in your sport specific training.

[fern]

Strength is a very vague term.

 

here's some nice definitions from Jim Cawley. Strength is #3:

 

If your goal is optimum physical competence then all the general physical skills must be considered:

 

 

1. Cardiovascular endurance - The ability of body systems to gather, process and deliver oxygen.

 

2. Stamina - The ability of body systems to process, deliver, store and utilize energy.

 

3. Strength - The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of to apply force.

 

4. Flexibility - The ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

 

5. Power - The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

 

6. Speed - The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

 

7. Coordination - The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

 

8. Agility - The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

 

9. Balance - The ability to control the placement of the bodies center of gravity in relation to its support base.

 

10. Accuracy - The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.

 

 

if you work at improving all 10 skills, by whatever training regime you like, then your climbing will improve. Skip development in any area and you will probably find that area becomes your mode of failure in performance. For example in climbing (ice or rock) many times arm strength is blamed when what is actually lacking is the balance, flexibility and coordination to transfer weight to the feet.

[Dr_Flush_Amazing]

 

Fern is the coolest person on earth.

[Choada_Boy]

Just slackline, brah!

[JayB]

Pegboard and gym-rope. I have no idea if they'd help for ice-climbing, but I've always wanted to have a home-gym with both.

[Chad_A]

Awesome thread; great info.

 

Now, if I could only get the meatheads off the weights at the gym fast enough to do a true crossfit workout

 

It all seems to be a strange balance to me, and a tricky one...meaning, maintaining a training regimen, whilst having enough reserve to go out and climb, if Stewart, Donn, or Rodney says "hey, lets go check out [insert climb here]!"

 

I'm guessing that periodization isn't for me/my schedule...but strength training is obviously a must.

 

Good thread, scottgg!

[BillA]

You should come to Crossfit Portland.

[fern]

after cogitating I decided that I think the original post is right. If you can do 15 pullups but can't climb WI4 then your technique must be worse than suck. WI4 is not even vertical. Also I think that if you can link 15 crossfit-style kipping pullups with good rhythm and pace you are probably closer to good ice-climbing technique than if you can do 15 static deadhang pullups (or worse, typical gymrat 1/2 ROM chins) but can't kip. Also I think that my choice for the top 3 exercises that would improve my conditioning for ice climbing they would be pullups (on bar, rings, tools, L-pullups, windshield wipers etc. - basically hanging off my arms and moving my body around), deadlifts, and swinging actual ice-tools with extra head weight (I add weight to mine by taping on sockets from my wrench set).

[tthirloway]

About the rotator cuff injuries from too many pullups: is that something that comes on slowly with warning signs or is it more of a sudden blowout of your shoulder?