you don't give a fuck

[glassgowkiss]

i posted this link http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/610355/an/0/page/0#610355

not speaking up is endorsing it. in reality posters on this bord don't give a fuck about anybody, but yourseves.

[cj001f]

I'd argue showcasing the Chinese abuses of Tibet - by visiting and capturing Han chinese hegemony at it's finest - then showing it to friends and neighbors - would do more than a boycott.

 

In reality we're fucked. Cheap consumer crap is more important.

[olyclimber]

bob, maybe they're just speaking with actions rather than spray. or maybe not.

[Cobra_Commander]

ggk posts to this site with a computer built entirely in poland, apparently.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

it's simply impossible to boycott things made in China. Every *#)(*()#&*()&)(*#& product seems to be made there. On occasion there is an option to buy something made elsewhere, but that is relatively rare.

[glassgowkiss]

ggk posts to this site with a computer built entirely in poland, apparently.

don't know where Macs are made. for sure i'll be more cautious what products i am buying from now on. and at least i voiced my opinion. have you?

[cj001f]

have you?

he did, it's difficult to hear one more

"bahhhhhhh"

above the rest of america.

[Dechristo]

I know, GGK, when the world sees and prioritizes as you, all will be well.

[JayB]

I think if you expand your frame of reference to include The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, it's not quite so clear that liberalizing trade with the Chinese has been innefectual with respect the manner in which the Chinese treat the people that live within their own borders, whether they be Chinese or Tibetan.

 

The hard, cold, fact of the matter is that there's nothing that the rest of the world can do to "Free Tibet" that runs contrary to China's perception of it's own interests. If the Chinese can be convinced that it's in their own interest to act in a particular way with regards to Tibet that we also happen to favor, then that change will happen.

 

As things stand now China is growing more sensitive to the manner in which it is perceived abroad, and they actually have a monetary and diplomatic interest in the manner in which they are perceived abroad. The aren't hosting the Olympics because there's nothing the Politburo likes more than a good party.

 

I think that if the US government were to slap sanctions on China for this kind of conduct, you'd get a defiant nationalist backlash that would in all likelihood make things worse for the Tibetans. I also think that Carl is right that the trading links between China and the US are too well developed to permit any serious disruption over human rights issues, but if they start to feel an impact on their collective wallets and global image due to changes in consumer behavior and sentiments, they may eventually accept that it's in their interest to reform their conduct a bit.

[tvashtarkatena]

With the subject line, you shouldn't be too disappointed that no one showed up for your party.

 

You're right that there is wrong in this world. Are you right to consider your wrong the right wrong, and everyone else's the wrong wrong? You're making an assumption that everyone out here is sitting on their asses waiting for you to wake them up. We're not.

 

If Tibet is your thing, there's probably a group out there that's got a focused way of doing something about it. join them. At the very least they'll probably have more effective ways to bring more people to your cause.

[cj001f]

With the subject line, you shouldn't be too disappointed that no one showed up for your party.

 

So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much

[ivan]

bottom line too - the chinese and tibetans will have to control their own destiny - wether by violent revolution or peaceful means, they will be the ones who effect change in their own government.

 

buying non-china stuff when you can does at least make you feel a better - but it does little

[kix]

by being anti china, you just contribute to there being more objectionable issues for you to be anti china about. Focus your thoughts, visions and prayers on positive outcomes for all tibetans and chinese and that is what you will contribute to bringing about. By drawing attention and focusing thought on all the negative, you reinforce it.

 

better to be positive for change than negative about what is.

 

I am optimistic that you will learn that speaking up can lead indirectly to the endorsement you so fear. Bring your message, but learn to direct the resulting action to be one of positive thought, not more negative.

[David Trippett]

here i am in this thread

[Winter]

Guys this whole bs line about there is nothing the international community can do other than boycotting Chinese goods in the market place is a complete fucking cop out and totally unsupported by history.

 

Take, as a single example, South Africa and apartheid. Now granted the situation is very different for numerous reasons than China/Tibet, but the international outcry as well as the international support for the domestic movement were critical pieces to creating real change.

 

Anyone who holds power always wants the oppressed to feel powerless, because it creates a psychological barrier to change. Don't buy into that bullshit.

[JayB]

With the subject line, you shouldn't be too disappointed that no one showed up for your party.

 

So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much

 

Something tells me we've glimpsed a part of Carl's pick up routine when abroad. Choose the appropriate setting, then throw your hands up and exclaim " So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much!!!!"...

 

Then dig out the latest Chomsky tome, crank-up the Manu Chao on the ipod and slyly but furtively dart eyes about the room to see if the euro/latin/backpacker chicks within earshot happen to notice the dissafected/yankee-dissident/sophisticate/citizen-of-the-world-that-has-yet-to-emigrate-despite-his-grievances who's so different from his more noxious gun-toting-banjo-playing-sisterhumping-fundamentalist countrymen, understands the sheer infallibility of the grand globo-euro-lefto consensus, etc - and stands out from all of the other dissaffected/sophisticate/yankee-dissident types cruising around tyring to churn up a little action with the well-rehearsed Chomsky/Zinn/Said riff while they're traveling between semesters.

[David Trippett]

With the subject line, you shouldn't be too disappointed that no one showed up for your party.

 

So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much

 

Something tells me we've glimpsed a part of Carl's pick up routine when abroad. Choose the appropriate setting, then throw your hands up and exlaim " So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much!!!!"...

 

Then dig out the latest Chomsky tome, crank-up the Manu Chao on the ipod and slyly but furtively dart eyes about the room to see if the euro/latin/backpacker chicks within earshot happens to notice the dissafected/yankee-dissident/sophisticate/citizen-of-the-world-that-has-yet-to-emigrate-despite-his-grievances who's so different from his more noxious gun-toting-banjo-laying-sisterhumping-fundamentalist countrymen, understands the sheer infallibility of the grand globo-euro-lefto consensus, etc - and stands out from all of the other dissaffected/sophisticate/yankee-dissident types cruising around tyring to churn up a little action with the well-rehearsed Chomsky/Zinn/Said riff while they're traveling between semesters.

 

Edited October 16, 2006 by avitripp

[cj001f]

Something tells me we've glimpsed a part of Carl's pick up routine when abroad. Choose the appropriate setting, then throw your hands up and exlaim " So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much!!!!"...

 

Then dig out the latest Chomsky tome, crank-up the Manu Chao on the ipod and slyly but furtively dart eyes about the room to see if the euro/latin/backpacker chicks within earshot happens to notice the dissafected/yankee-dissident/sophisticate/citizen-of-the-world-that-has-yet-to-emigrate-despite-his-grievances who's so different from his more noxious gun-toting-banjo-laying-sisterhumping-fundamentalist countrymen, understands the sheer infallibility of the grand globo-euro-lefto consensus, etc - and stands out from all of the other dissaffected/sophisticate/yankee-dissident types cruising around tyring to churn up a little action with the well-rehearsed Chomsky/Zinn/Said riff while they're traveling between semesters.

 

Oh nonsense JayB - I'm far to bohemian to hit on disaffected americans. I prefer being rejected by the local latinas who've seen 50 of me.

 

As for the sugarcoated bit - look at our politics. We want people to tell us "the positive" and have a "positive agenda" and value that ahead of the negative. Look at the last election - W's brand of incompetence was preferrably to the absence of an agenda

 

Now back to your standard effete liberal critique, oh coddler of cuban terrorists

[minx]

wtf? when/where should we speak up? here? on this forum?

 

you don't know who is making what buying decisions, being active in another way...that you know nothing about.

 

or as in many cases...only has so much time in life to champion so many causes. i, for one, cannot possibly take an active role in every world atrosity that bothers me. i can however do something about some of them.

 

your link disturbs me, it may make me think about my buying descisions more closely, but it's not going to be my number one cause.

 

don't tell me I don't give a fuck about anybody but myself. i just don't prioritize this cause as highly as you do.

 

FUCK OFF>

[Mr_Phil]

not speaking up is endorsing it.

 

 

You are a tool.

 

Sounds like you were raised in an environment where you were told what to think and how to feel. Now at your age, you are taking over as moral authority through bullying.

 

Sorry. Try again.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Mr_Phil

[JayB]

Guys this whole bs line about there is nothing the international community can do other than boycotting Chinese goods in the market place is a complete fucking cop out and totally unsupported by history.

 

Take, as a single example, South Africa and apartheid. Now granted the situation is very different for numerous reasons than China/Tibet, but the international outcry as well as the international support for the domestic movement were critical pieces to creating real change.

 

Anyone who holds power always wants the oppressed to feel powerless, because it creates a psychological barrier to change. Don't buy into that bullshit.

 

I agree with alot of what you said, but I'd say that acknowledging certain realities and limitations indicates at least a bit of moral and intellectual seriousness. Slapping a "Free Tibet" sticker on the back of your Subaru and calling it good is a completely worthless excercise in moral vanity that's about as likely to be effective as pretending that a "Stop Aids" bumper sticker is likely to make the virus dissapear from Sub-Saharan Africa.

 

The bottom line is that China is never going to "Free Tibet." There are various means that concerned people all over the world can use to convince the Chinese that it's in their interest to treat the Tibetans better, but anyone who wants to change the reality over there should at the very least be serious enough to start by recognizing the facts on the ground, and by differentiating between what's it's possible to accomplish and what it isn't, and what is likely to be effective and what's not.

 

I work with a lot of Chinese folks, and my discussions with them concerning topics like Taiwan makes me think that any who wishes to persuade them to change their behavior will need to be mindful of Chinese sensibilities if they're going to have any chance of being effective.

[billcoe]

wtf? ............

 

don't tell me I don't give a fuck about anybody but myself. i just don't prioritize this cause as highly as you do.

 

FUCK OFF>

 

Hello Minx? I thought you were a moderator here?

 

BTW, this event happended while I was over there, not far from this pass, and didn't hear about it till I got back. The Tibetians appear to overwhelmingly want the Chinese to pack up and leave. But it's not gonna happen.

 

FYI, in 1997, the Nepalese Sherpas said that it was common knowledge, known by all the locals, that any Tibetan crossing into Nepal via this pass without correct paperwork (which is evidently most of the time), would be executed by the Chinese if they were caught and returned to the Tibetan/Chinese border by the Nepalese.

 

This event just happened to take place in front of a bunch of Westerners. Nothing has really changed in the last 10 years.

 

Bob, like to know what you are planning on doing now that you have seen the light and now appear to give a FUCK.

[minx]

hey bill--being a moderator doesn't stop me from having an opinion. as far as i know swearing is standard fare for spray so i don't see what your problem is.

 

this is apparently a hot topic with you and ggk so you think we should all prioritize at the same level you do. you know, there are global issues that i personally consider more important than this one. yes i'm doing something about those. i really don't need ggk to level broad accusations about me or anyone else being a lazy uncaring person. he doesn't have a clue. he's just bent b/c this doesn't top everyone's priority list. frankly, i think he has his priorities out of whack but you don't see me posting it like that.

[JayB]

Something tells me we've glimpsed a part of Carl's pick up routine when abroad. Choose the appropriate setting, then throw your hands up and exlaim " So typically American. Tell us the hard truth - but make sure it's sugarcoated and doesn't hurt to much!!!!"...

 

Then dig out the latest Chomsky tome, crank-up the Manu Chao on the ipod and slyly but furtively dart eyes about the room to see if the euro/latin/backpacker chicks within earshot happens to notice the dissafected/yankee-dissident/sophisticate/citizen-of-the-world-that-has-yet-to-emigrate-despite-his-grievances who's so different from his more noxious gun-toting-banjo-laying-sisterhumping-fundamentalist countrymen, understands the sheer infallibility of the grand globo-euro-lefto consensus, etc - and stands out from all of the other dissaffected/sophisticate/yankee-dissident types cruising around tyring to churn up a little action with the well-rehearsed Chomsky/Zinn/Said riff while they're traveling between semesters.

 

Oh nonsense JayB - I'm far to bohemian to hit on disaffected americans. I prefer being rejected by the local latinas who've seen 50 of me.

 

As for the sugarcoated bit - look at our politics. We want people to tell us "the positive" and have a "positive agenda" and value that ahead of the negative. Look at the last election - W's brand of incompetence was preferrably to the absence of an agenda

 

Now back to your standard effete liberal critique, oh coddler of cuban terrorists

 

After I posted this, I realized that I forgot to include drinking the organic yerba-mate out of some authentic indigenous drinking vessel AND using the correct straw/filter thingy. Many apologies for tossing you in with the posers who drink the yerba mate' without the straw thingy while doing the theatrical ritual-denunciation of his yanqui counterparts.

[tvashtarkatena]

Something tells me we've glimpsed a part of Carl's pick up routine when abroad.

Then dig out the latest Chomsky tome, crank-up the Manu Chao on the ipod and slyly but furtively dart eyes about the room to see if the euro/latin/backpacker chicks within earshot happens to notice the dissafected/yankee-dissident/sophisticate/citizen-of-the-world-that-has-yet-to-emigrate-despite-his-grievances who's so different from his more noxious gun-toting-banjo-laying-sisterhumping-fundamentalist countrymen, understands the sheer infallibility of the grand globo-euro-lefto consensus, etc - and stands out from all of the other dissaffected/sophisticate/yankee-dissident types cruising around tyring to churn up a little action with the well-rehearsed Chomsky/Zinn/Said riff while they're traveling between semesters.

I suppose it would be an understatement to say that a response from me to Carl's "so American!" potshot would be, um, a bit unnecessary at this point.

 

Where is the 'smoldering nuclear crater smiley face' emoticon on this menu?