Off_White Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 Which doesn't preclude Talk + Action = 1, but if and only if the value of talk = 0.5 BTW Value of talk and action each would 0.5, and that would solve for both equations. Being more obtuse than Gary is something of an honor, isn't it? Who says a BA has no value?
mattp Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 Marko - one photo is here: Scroll down to page 4 of 6 I believe subsequent discussion may have indicated there was some deviation lower down, as well, but I'm not sure. I think David Whitelaw and Chris Greyell climbed this feature about 20 years earlier.
Marko Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 C'mon dude do you think Twight invented that... it's a DOA album from the 80s. I thought Blitz invented it and Twight popularized it, thanks for the clarification. Matt, So it might be that the middle 1/3 or maybe 1/2 of the 2 routes are common, eh? The FA done 2 decades ago is probably the real truth...
mattp Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 You'd have to check with Mike on that, Marko. I know that Leland insisted that he knew where Mikes line had deviated from IB at least in some spots in that middle portion, too. As to the Greyell/Whitelaw line, I think that is a completely lost part of our heritage.
JosephH Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 The point of my talk and deliberate restraint from action is that as far as I'm concerned the "community" that these days is so pre-occupied with "service" should have done some the minute this abortion hit the collective radar. I.e. the "community" should have immediately erased it as group as opposed to anyone taking a lone wolf approach. That they allowed it to exist at all long enough to hit govt. agency radars was the first mistake. Not collectively eradicating in since is the second. It is a total and continuing embarassment simply engendering more of the same...
cj001f Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 He'd probably agree that you sound like you are from Colorado gay brotherhoods are so Boulder; shadow climbing clubs are so 50s
matt_m Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 The point of my talk and deliberate restraint from action is that as far as I'm concerned the "community" that these days is so pre-occupied with "service" should have done some the minute this abortion hit the collective radar. I.e. the "community" should have immediately erased it as group as opposed to anyone taking a lone wolf approach. That they allowed it to exist at all long enough to hit govt. agency radars was the first mistake. Not collectively eradicating in since is the second. It is a total and continuing embarassment simply engendering more of the same... I'd like to point out I respect JosephH and all the work he's done as a steward for the Beacon rock area. That said I think your above statement points out that in this case, the "community" as a "whole" does not view the route as vehemently as you do and through its lack of action, showed well thought out restraint (as do you in your lack of action). People may love or hate IB but let's reserve the tag "abortion" for things that truly and undoubtedly are. Bolts next to an indian creek crack or chipping for example. I've also learned in my years on the "boards" (rc.com, supertopo, cc.com etc) that as much as the sites and the people on them would want to believe otherwise, the "community" on here is a VERY SMALL part of the true climbing world. Seriously, how many frequent posters are on here? 15? 25 MAYBE? Heck, I've see 10x that many climbers on a fall weekend in the Gunks. Being climbers and internet users does not make us elected representatives - it just makes us climbers who can take the beer/campfire discussions/debates to work with us. At the end of the day we may be able learn and discuss more things but that doesn't mean we have carte blanche to act on them. I now go to these sites mainly to 1) check on access and conditions 2) see dru rant and wonder WHAT he does all day 3) on a VERY limited basis take part in the EVER REPEATING and RE-OCCURING debates climbers love to have
JosephH Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) People may love or hate IB but let's reserve the tag "abortion" for things that truly and undoubtedly are. This is simply where we part company and disagree. I believe ignorant bliss is the poster child for the appropriate use of the term "abortion". I don't think the community showed restraint at all in this case. I think it dithered, wrung its hands, and then once the affair was in full blown public fiasco mode, it ducked / punted on the issue. It did so both because of the on-going tensions between sport and trad and because of all the recent Wilderness fixed protection hoopla. In short we didn't show restraint, we displayed community paralysis and I think it was a real lost opportunity to show govt agencies we are capable of responsibly policing ourselves. So personally, I consider the whole affair a real low point in NW climbing. And it's just a real pity the guys who put it up don't simply go pull their hardware and put it to legitimate use elsewhere... Edited June 14, 2006 by JosephH
132435465768 Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 hey joseph h, like matt m just said, apparently the climbing community HAS spoken by leaving it alone. the world doesn't revolve around you, man! the fact that you are so opinionated without having climbed it is a little "ignorant" on your part. trying to lord over beacon rock isn't enough for you eh? oh no! you want the whole "community" to bow before your godly opinions. the reason i started climbing was to get away from assholes like you and your belief that EVERY climber think just like you
chris Posted June 14, 2006 Posted June 14, 2006 Digression: Note that Infinite Bliss is really a variation of a route put up in 1999 by Mike Preiss onsight, solo (some self-belaying) and with no bolts. Even more digression: The solution of Johnny Blitz' equation has alway kinda bugged me: Talk - Action = Zilch... So what then, Talk = Action? Marko, I got to disagree with you, this is what I posted when Preiss wrote that letter... This is long winded, but please put up with me. Perhaps grab a beer first... OK, I've finally bought a copy of R&I #139. I'm going to quote Mike Preiss's letter exactly. "I solo-climbed this line on July 23 through 24, 1999, making the first ascent of this face on-sight, ground-up, boltless and pinless, with one bivy. The article in No. 138 by Andy Dappen ["Infinite Bliss"] failed to mention this. [My line] shows that this face didn't need to be bolted into submission for the sport climbers to play their no-risk sport/game. Only as a lastresort should bolts be placed. I can't speak for the bottom three to four pitches or the last four to five pitches (they take a harder direct finish). I do agree that some of the middle section could use a few belay bolts, but I found the protection decent on most of the climb." Here's what I notice when I look at Dave's photo with the line of Infinite Bliss and the Preiss Route marked in, and compare it with my notes from an ascent of IB in May last year: 1) That the picture fails to show the bottom six pitches. If the photo accurately depicts Preiss's entire route, then he can't speak about pitch 1-6... 2) The photo also incorrectly details pitches 7 - 10, and is very foreshortened... 3) According to the photo, Preiss followed IB through a pitch of 5.9+ (Pitch 9) and a second pitch of 5.10- (Pitch 11), but detours around the easy 5th (or hard 4th depending who you talk to) of the 15th, 16th, and 17th pitches... 4) The Preiss Route seperates from IB at the top of Pitch 17 to head left on easier ground. This means Preiss can't comment on another six pitches to the summit. So Preiss can't comment on 12 pitches of a 23 pitch route... So, what else did I read? I went back and sorted through the Infinite Bliss conversations of the past on Cascade Sprayers. I found one comment by Marko about knowing someone who soloed the face - I can only assume he meant Preiss. I re-read the NWMJ, but nothing. I also double checked the 2000, 2001, and 2002 AAJ's, and just for kicks 1999 as well. Finally I read the Brown Book (Beckey's Vol. I: Columbia River to Stevens Pass), Third Edition (printed in 2000). No mention of the Preiss Route, and no surprise since Preiss probably climbed the route when the latest edition was being proofed. But it was cool to read that the first ascent of the South Face was done by Gerry Roach, Dick Springgate and John Wells on 22 February 1963. But when I climbed IB last May, I was aware that someone had soloed the face before, and I looked around to see how it could be done. I sincerely wonder why Preiss would solo up two pitches rated 5.9+ and 5.10-, respectively, but then take an easier line than the three 4th class pitches conecting the bottom to the final headwall. And as I look at the photo, the obvious, alpine-style route that I would assume a soloist to take follows the most logical system of ledges. It is a sinuos (sic?) line that would enter the face and cross IB at pitch 10, rejoin IB at pitch 15, and then seperate at pitch 17 to follow Preiss's finish. Preiss should get full credit for such a bold climb ( ), but I question if it was the identical line. The 4 hardest pitches of Infinite Bliss are unprotectable without bolts, as is almost all of the route. I disagree with his claim that Infinite Bliss could have been done without bolting. By soloing, yes. But with trad gear and pins? No. Hence my doubts...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 What if the reason that the climbing community hasnt responded (in the manner you desire) is actually because as a whole, MOST people who climb this route think it is pretty dang fun. And believe it or not, most people that I know climb because it is fun.
alpine1 Posted June 15, 2006 Author Posted June 15, 2006 wow i never thought this thing would raise such a fuss guess i have been out of the loop too long. bolts, pins chaulk when does it end the 70's were sure alot more simple
JosephH Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 (132435465768) hey joseph h, like matt m just said, apparently the climbing community HAS spoken by leaving it alone. the world doesn't revolve around you, man! the fact that you are so opinionated without having climbed it is a little "ignorant" on your part. Ignorant would be an experienced climber needing to climb it to understand just what it's all about. It isn't rocket science - it's a long, bolt-enabled sport route in an alpine setting. Period - doesn't require an advanced degree or a blessing from the church of the AMGA. trying to lord over beacon rock isn't enough for you eh? oh no! you want the whole "community" to bow before your godly opinions. the reason i started climbing was to get away from assholes like you and your belief that EVERY climber think just like you Well, you're obviously another whining bitch who, when it comes to Beacon, thinks it's a private, maintenance-free playpen that expects nothing from you -for me to say more than that you'd have to come out from behind that coward's 1-post moniker and talk and act like a man. Until then, please do climb somewhere I'm not... [P.S. I originally got into climbing to get away from lazy, frightened, and priviledged suburbanite assholes so riddled with entitlement issues everything, including safe, risk-free passage up a rock in the middle of the mountains is somehow due them as a birthright - until I hear otherwise I'll assume you're just another one of them...] As far as ignorant bliss, the community decision - and I'm giving a lot of credit to the very, very few folks that took the hits to get involved at all - was a consensus that amounted to paralysis reflecting factional tensions within our community and with the Feds. The route was and is a mistake, that made and makes us look like we're incapable of policing ourselves, will tolerate anything, and think that once bolts go in they are somehow sacrosanct. They aren't.
DJ_Dirty_Ernie Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 I was going to climb infinite bliss but my pyloric valve sealed completely.
JosephH Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 And believe it or not, most people that I know climb because it is fun. Well, I can't speak for the specific company you keep but at this point it's pretty obvious 70-80 percent of today's climbers climb because most of them are climbing at risk-free, outdoor clip-up emulations of their neighborhood gym. If bolts evaporated tomorrow fully 70-80 percent of today's climbers wouldn't be tomorrow. So, in principle I agree, most of them are in it strictly for the entertainment value in an activity that doesn't really require all that much of them...
billcoe Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 Hi Muffy, Re: your message, I would chalk all that up more to lazyness. Also, it's not like that with Joseph. You should climb with him. He's really a pretty good guy. Pretty darn smart as well. Really. RE: hey joseph h, like matt m just said, apparently the climbing community HAS spoken by leaving it alone. the world doesn't revolve around you, man! the fact that you are so opinionated without having climbed it is a little "ignorant" on your part. trying to lord over beacon rock isn't enough for you eh? oh no! you want the whole "community" to bow before your godly opinions. the reason i started climbing was to get away from assholes like you and your belief that EVERY climber think just like you
Off_White Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 Umm, Bill, are you implying that the number person is our Muffy the Wankersprayer? I don't think so, no insult intended, but the Muffster doesn't care about her spelling that much, and I don't think this issue is her windmill to tilt at.
chris Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 Easy Joseph, easy. That was 123's remarks were clearly meant to simply piss you off, not contribute to the discussion. But I do have a question. What makes IB an alpine climb? Its length? Its location? If it was in Yosemite, would it still count as an alpine climb? It only has a 45-minute approach. There are multi-pitch climbs in Icicle that take longer to reach, but I don't consider alpine. There are other examples of multi-pitch sport climbs with high commitment or in alpine ecological zones, both here in the Cascades, in the Sierras, Austria, Switzerland, France, and Mexico. Are these examples irrelevant? Why?
motomagik Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 So, in principle I agree, most of them are in it strictly for the entertainment value in an activity that doesn't really require all that much of them... Umm, excuse me? "doesn't require much of them?" You really are pompous, it's completely absurd. Just because something has some bolts on it doesn't mean it doesn't require effort, and lots of it. And just because IB has bolts on it doesn't mean that it's and "outdoor gym" and "risk-free". People who haved climbed the route who agree that it not something to take on lightly. And one more thing, the route setters/community didn't use retsraint? Hello, there is one very difficult to locate bolt on pitch 15, which is pretty exposed climbing. I think, on the contrary, that the setters used quite a lot of restraint. But I've climbed the route, so I'm allowed to have an opinion....
sexual_chocolate Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 JosephH comes from the old school "Hardman Era" where one's identity is wrapped up in mythologizing climbing as some sort of sacrosanct iconic activity through which to prove one's manhood. He cannot relate to the idea of climbing being an enjoyable hobby, practiced because it is fun.
layton Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 I've got no problem with a long alpine sport climb (yes it's an alpine climb, it climbs a peak). Alpenclippin is a hell of a lot of fun. Also it does seem like the bolts weren't overboard. The main problem was that it was done in a wilderness area. But what's done is done, and if it's a fun route then let's leave it be. The problem I have with it is (and correct me if I'm wrong): Didn't Doorish already do this route earlier, sans bolts? So basically this is a retrobolted climb? If so, then I think every bolt should be chopped. So is this a retrobolted climb?
Recommended Posts