another bolting ethics question/topic

[corvallisclimb]

i along with a few other friends are resoponsible for most of the development of a certain bouldering area. lately bolts have been popping up atop problems we did well before i even knew how to place a bolt. some of these problems are a mere 15 feet or so not even high ball. and im a shitty free climber so seeing these bolts there pissed me off. do we have the right to chop those bolts? i guess im not enough of a boulderer to know whats right or whats wrong here, but i think they where wrong. voice your opinion

[underworld]

don't use em.

[kix]

chop chop.

 

with extreme prejudice.

[dan_forester]

how high would the routes have to be for the bolts to not make you mad?

[DirtyHarry]

If in doubt, chop.

[RuMR]

I think Potter shoulda bolted the hell outta that boulder problem, screw those bigwigs...oh wait, my bad, wrong thread

[corvallisclimb]

I think Potter shoulda bolted the hell outta that boulder problem, screw those bigwigs...oh wait, my bad, wrong thread

 

yeah i shoulda let that thread settle down before posting this.

[Off_White]

I'd encourage you to try and contact whoever was responsible and have a conversation about it. You may well be in your rights to chop those bolts, but a vicious cycle of chop and replace may not be a favorable outcome. Better if you can persuade the other folks to see things from your perspective, be persuaded by theirs, or come to some middle ground. Less dramatic to be sure though, so not what many here might advise.

[underworld]

blast the boulder so there will be a crack near their bolts... then you'll be ok to chop em.

[EWolfe]

If it is an obviously established bouldering area, and the bolters didn't check with any of the boulderers that did FA's, chopping is acceptable, IMO

 

There is a risk of escalation, however that might lead to damaged holds, or other repercussions.

[Ed_Hobbick]

If you went up there and removed all of the bolt hangers, took them home and painted them to match the color of the rock and then replaced them, they'd be much less of an eyesore.

[G-spotter]

CHOP THEM!

[kix]

Less dramatic to be sure though, so not what many here might advise.

 

mount a few top-ropers heads from poles at the trailhead and things will clear up dramatically.

[mountainmatt]

15 feet seems crazy unless the landing is crazy bad. I would guess you have a good case to chop them, especially if you developed the area. My understanding is that once the FA has been done, you should contact that person before placing any bolts...

[corvallisclimb]

15 feet seems crazy unless the landing is crazy bad.

yeah its flat ground! so thats what i thought.

 

thank you every one for you input. i will now consult with the inner circle.

[EWolfe]

Isn't there an old adage:

 

Chop Bolts

 

Carry Ethics

 

[corvallisclimb]

and by the way they cratered the holes i can guarantee it was some newbs with a hand drill

[billcoe]

Corvallis: we have not been able to form a consensus up here in PDX on all the hot bolting issues which in some ways are very similar to your issue (retro-bolting of existing routes), so offering you what should be done in your area seems a bit presumptious since it all like herding cats up here (and you can't even find the cats either, you just see the footprints).

 

We've both heard all the arguements: ie, "if they feel they have the right to just show up and stick in a bolt on an existing route, then you have the same right- or even more so to yank it blah blah blah........." all the way to this one, "Well, you shouldn't yank them cause it might damage the rock blah blah blah"...TO "Just contact them and talk it over blah blah blah".

 

None of us has ever seen your area I suspect. I think that you need to do what YOU think is the right thing and it will all work out.

 

Good luck:

[Off_White]

Bill, he's talking about top rope anchors on boulder problems, not bolts added to pre-existing lead routes. How do you feel about unknown parties deciding to remove anchors at Rocky Butte? (rhetorical question - you've made your feelings known)

[billcoe]

Pat Robertson had sex with my younger brother

 

Off, re: your sig, pitcher or catcher?

_________________________________________________

 

 

I'm just saying that no one up here has even figured out how to start the discussion process - thats how F*ucked up we are. Maybe we should outsource this discussion to India or Mexico.

 

Cya, I'm off to the shoe forum.

[Off_White]

Heh, I'm just leaving that tagline on until googling the search string "pat robertson sex brother" puts me on the first page. I'm currently on page two.

 

Yeah Bill, the PDX situation sounds frustrating. Odd too, since I don't think of Portland as being that tightly wrapped, but it only takes an individual or two. I was just urging Corvallisclimb to try and have such a conversation, rather than playing at bolt wars.

 

I was impressed by a comment on Supertopo by Tom Higgins regarding a bolt war on a route named Hair Raiser Buttress in the eastern Sierra. Higgins was one of the FA parties, and for those unfamiliar with the name, he's an old school trad climber with impeccable credentials and a resume of bold ground up climbs.

 

I did not ask for the added bolts on Hair Raiser to be removed. My experience with removing bolts suggests it is counterproductive. Long ago, when I removed the bolts from Hand Jive in Tuolumne because they were placed on rappel (at the time, quite an affront to accepted climbing practice), no one was persuaded by my actions; the rock was scarred; the bolts were quickly replaced; and bolt hangers on a route of mine (the Vision) probably were flattened in retribution (I can't be sure - no one fessed up). It seems bolting and erasing wars do no good. Debate, discussion, posts and letters are the better means for trying to keep the long held agreement among climbers not to alter original protection. (For a fuller discussion, see "Rock Climbs of Tuolumne Meadows," Reid and Falkenstein, Chockstone Press, 1983).

[Peter_Puget]

OW - Interested parties should check out Mountian 60. It has a Higgens’ article about the Meadows and a chart showing style and such. The final paragraph is as follows:

 

Third, whatever sense or order one seeks in Toulumne climbing, whatever direction anyone tries to give it, always seems doomed. The future there, as the past, will undoubtedly remain unpredictable and paradoxical. From the satisfaction of having no guide to the Meadows, to the hope for few visitors but enough to appreciate one's own routes, to the climbing in one style while idealizing another, the future of Toulumne will be as befuddling as the fear and elation Gerughty must have felt when he first shook upward on that thin white web of Toulumne rock.

[kevbone]

Do the bolts abstruct the holds at the top? Are they realy doing anyone any harm? Not including ego! 15 feet is far enough to fall and get hurt. Starting a war over a piece of rock is counter productive. Maybe trying to find the person and disscusing it might be the best approch. They did not acctually retro a route, since the only way to climb the route is to solo it. No one owns the rock. It is a hard call.

Edited May 19, 2006 by kevbone

[billcoe]

Heh, I'm just leaving that tagline on until googling the search string "pat robertson sex brother" puts me on the first page. I'm currently on page two.

 

I'm in awe!

[corvallisclimb]

Heh, I'm just leaving that tagline on until googling the search string "pat robertson sex brother" puts me on the first page. I'm currently on page two.