Gas Prices

[willstrickland]

I agree with JayB.

 

Big oil makes lower profit margins than most industries. Nobody was bitching in the 90s when they were making shit for profits and dumping billions into capital expeditures that now produces the O&G. Their profits are global demand driven on volume and scarcity.

 

A visual for you:

 

 

Integrated O&G (i.e. XOM, CVX, COP, etc) profit margin is running about 7-10%.

 

Refiners avg about 5%.

 

Meanwhile, nobody's bitching about "price gouging" on shampoo, soap, razors, cereal, etc when most consumer staples companies are running margins in the same 7-12% ballpark.

 

Politicians will adopt the populist rhetoric anytime it serves them. One side will attack supply constraints (GOP-drill ANRW) otherside will attack demand issues (DEM- CAFE stds). It's all intellecutally dishonest pandering.

[murraysovereign]

Damn, I'm in that same 7 - 10% profit range. Admittedly, I'm at the (very) low end of that range, but still high enough that I'm going to have to worry about being investigated by some federal government commission. Like I don't already have enough to lose sleep over.

 

And as for gas prices, there's a very simple way to reduce the amount of money you spend on gas. Don't use so much . That's it - no fancy government rebates, no tax adjustments, no subsidies. Just leave your car parked in the driveway once in a while. If you leave the car parked one day of the week, that will reduce your gas consumption by 1/7. And that will save you 14.5% on your fuel bill. Are any of these band-aid government initiatives proposing to reduce the price at the pump by 14.5%? I doubt it.

 

And if everyone left their cars parked for one day of the week, overall demand for gas would go down by 14.5%. And then you'd see gas prices come down. Simple.

 

And if you're "unable" to leave your car parked for one lousy day a week, then quit your bitching and suck it up.

[cj001f]

Big oil makes lower profit margins than most industries.

er, so what? So does the grocery industry, and so does walmart.

[Jim]

Bottom line is we consume too much from driving gas guzzlers and buy every plastic distraction put in front of us. That said, there's been some odd tax give-aways to the oil companies in the last energy bill. And that one time exemption from overseas profits was an idiotic Bushie move, like they're going to change their accounting practices - they just took the windfall and ran.

 

Wait until gas gets over $4/gallon. It will get interesting. Gotta love the Excursions with the yellow magnet on back - the drivers look stressed watching the gas needle.

[Weekend_Climberz]

I recently went from driving 300-400 miles a week to taking the bus to work. It basically required me to get a different job and change my lifestyle. Not too many people are willing to make that change. I'm doing my part.

[Punter]

Give up driving uh? I've tried to cut back. But how many of you are willing to cut back on travel? Not many I'd bet. I've flown about 30K in the last 12 months all for recreation or to see family. So much for helping the planet by not driving to the grocery store and taking the bike to the park and ride. I don't claim to know the stats on airline fuel being burned at 35,000 feet but I'm guessing that our demand for overnight packages, the ability to live anywhere and still see family occasionally, travel to other countries to climb or just for kicks is doing a significant amount of damage. More than our autos? Who knows?

[downfall]

I beleive that a 747 uses about 1gal/sec jet fuel. Though for passenger travel per person fuel effeciency is better than auto.

 

Choinaurd goes in to problems/costs/impact of air freight in Let My People Surf. Conclusion: if you care about the environment dont use air freight.

[downfall]

BTW, tonight should be critical mass 5:30 at westlake center if you care.

[Weekend_Climberz]

BTW, tonight should be critical mass 5:30 at westlake center if you care.

 

Great! There goes my idea of getting home early tonight.

[downfall]

If you were on a bike it wouldn't matter.

 

You just posted you were riding the bus. Critical mass makes a concerted effort to let all busses by w/out delay and avoids the 4th st reroute of the bus tunnel to avoid this as well.

 

Edited April 28, 2006 by downfall

[EWolfe]

I'am listening to NPR and the polititions babble on about doing someting about the price of gas. It sounds very dumb because there's not much they can do. The one thing they did do was start a war that makes the Mid East more unstable. Thanks Bush, you moron.

 

WTF does a bike-riding hippy care about gas prices?

 

Or is this just another chance to bitch?

[AlpineK]

Yeah, but he knows that every time he gets a ride to the mountains it's going to get harder and harder to sneak out from paying for gas.

[olyclimber]

I'm so hippy I've sworn off chewing gum in protest of Gouging Oil Monopolies and laissez-faire economics .

[G-spotter]

i burned my dreadlocks in protest, how much CO2 do ya think that generated?

[mattp]

Will and Jay:

 

I find your "c'mon, let business make money" argument somewhat persuasive, but only "somewhat." There’s no doubt, an oil company shareholder deserves to make money just as much as the next guy, and in fact they are supplying an essential commodity that is probably more essential than the next guy, but the fact is Oil has been more heavily subsidized than probably any other industry out there. And they’ve taken advantage of their position more than just about any single industry there is.

 

Remember how we used to have mass transit in the Puget Sound region (hint: it was called the interurban)? Oil companies and car companies took it apart so it wouldn’t compete with them. Remember how the anti-trust laws came into effect (hint search “standard oil” on google)? This complaint about “price fixing” is not a new one. Remember how just about all of our "justifications" for going to war in Iraq are crumbling - except for the "bottom line" about how we want "democracy" in the Middle East? What do you think the whole thing is about if it is not about OIL? Are we fighting for democracy in Africa or South America? Have we invaded Cuba or Uganda, where "dictators" have thumbed their nose at the U.S.? This industry is probably driving American foreign policy more than any single business interest ever has, and they are not paying the bill.

 

Yes, Shell may be acting just like a corporation just as WallMart is, but the fact is, these guys suck. And their business model is a threat to national security, economic stability, and global health. The sooner we figure out how to be less reliant upon these folks, and get them OUT of the White House, the better.

 

This isn't "populist rhetoric," It is common sense.

[olyclimber]

I can stop protesting....thats not laissez-faire economics.

[magellan]

1) I am an environmentalist. I drive six hours roundtrip to do an eight hour hike. Since my car is 25% more fuel efficient than yours, I am a 25% better person.

 

2) In the 70's, gas prices were much higher, as adjusted for inflation. At some times, it did not matter how much money you had, you could not buy gas! It was not available.

 

3) Why the hell didn't we make every effort to develop alternative fuels thirty years ago? Spare me the 'Big Oil is at fault'. I don't blame the crack dealer for my habit.

 

?) What is the next number?

[G-spotter]

i fly everywhere using the power of a bunch of seagulls attached to my giant peach with spider silk, OK?

[olyclimber]

4) We invade Alaska.

[klenke]

A trick that has worked quite well, at least for me anyway, has been to purchase oil stocks. That way, when the oil prices go up gas prices go up too and I pay more money at the pump...but the increase in stock value goes up at a greater rate so I'm happy.

 

When the oil price goes down I lose oil stock value but the gas price to fill up my vehicles goes down. To offset the loss in oil stock value I have diversified my portfolio with stocks that generally go up either when oil stocks go down or go up independently (more or less).

 

It's sort of a win-win situation.

 

Then there is the fact that my dad's side of the family is part owner of an oil well in Texas. Klenke family land lies within a township or square of land that has a well on it, so we get some of the profit, as do other land owners in that square. The difference in what we get bi-monthly then and now is quite nice. We've had ownership of this well long before oil prices got to where they are today. But if you think that we'll give it up now for the sake of a liberal principal, you're crazy.

[olyclimber]

5) We invade Texas

[G-spotter]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[downfall]

I think you can also pretty easily link lots of Big-oil with explotation, murder, war on people as well as the environment.

 

Should we continue to protect these companies and their profits which clearly come at a high expense to life and community?

 

Don't even try and question this until you've gone through www.endgame.org and looked up the relevant data (yes I'm talking to Dru and JayB ). Get some facts from there and then we can have some discussion.

[JayB]

Will and Jay:

 

I find your "c'mon, let business make money" argument somewhat persuasive, but only "somewhat." There’s no doubt, an oil company shareholder deserves to make money just as much as the next guy, and in fact they are supplying an essential commodity that is probably more essential than the next guy, but the fact is Oil has been more heavily subsidized than probably any other industry out there. And they’ve taken advantage of their position more than just about any single industry there is.

 

Remember how we used to have mass transit in the Puget Sound region (hint: it was called the interurban)? Oil companies and car companies took it apart so it wouldn’t compete with them. Remember how the anti-trust laws came into effect (hint search “standard oil” on google)? This complaint about “price fixing” is not a new one.

 

Yes, Shell may be acting just like a corporation just as WallMart is, but the fact is, these guys suck. And their business model is a threat to national security, economic stability, and global health. The sooner we figure out how to be less reliant upon these folks, the better.

 

I think the conspiracy bit is a touch more complicated than you suggest, and one of the more notable complications arises from the fact that the American public was party to the conspiracy. Most of the trolley systems predated the automobile, and their ridership fell in direct proportion to the number of households that could afford to own their own car. The automobile made it possible for people to live in detached houses, with yards, for lower price, than they could ever afford in the city - and still earn premium "city" wages. Trolleys or no trolleys, the exodus to the suburbs would have occured in the very same fashion.

 

The argument about price fixing may not be a new one, but it's hard to see how it has any relevance here, since there's no evidence that anyone is fixing prices. Prices for crude are set on the open market, not in the Exxon boardroom. If it were otherwise we'd have never seen prices go anywhere near $10 a barrel, or drop in real terms. Yet, every time gas prices go up, we're treated to the same empty spectacle. Congress calls hearings, the FTC - which is constantly checking for this sort of activity anyway - finds no evidence.

 

I can't recall ever arguing on behalf of subsidies for any business, or for tarriffs, or for any other legislation that distorts the market in favor of any given participant. Eliminating subsidies for anyone involved in the energy business would be great - so if you are opposed to subsidies you should be equally upset that the corn lobby has managed to secure not only a massive set of subsidies for ethanol production, and mandates for consumption that completely exceed current production capacity, but also managed to keep the tarrif against ethanol produced elsewhere in place - so that instead of ethanol being transported much more efficiently to ports in the coastal areas, it has to be transported by rail or truck to these same destinations. Factor that into the already meager energy savings associated with ethanol as a fuel, and consider the environmental impacts associated with intensive corn production, and it's hard to see how this is much of a victory for anyone except the corn lobby. The only possible upside is that maybe third world farmers will have to contend with slightly less surplus corn/flour distorting prices in their local markets.*

 

The bottom line is that oil companies wouldn't exist without the aggregate demand created by the trillions of decisions that people around the globe make every day. They - like the Trial Lawyers - are certainly guilty of trying to rig the system in their favor, but that's hardly a unique defect.

[JayB]

I think you can also pretty easily link lots of Big-oil with explotation, murder, war on people as well as the environment.

 

Should we continue to protect these companies and their profits which clearly come at a high expense to life and community?

 

Don't even try and question this until you've gone through www.endgame.org and looked up the relevant data (yes I'm talking to Dru and JayB ). Get some facts from there and then we can have some discussion.

 

You can find similar linkages between unsavory activities and any commodity, especially those that happen to be scarce and valuable, - but how, exactly, does that help address any energy issues in any realistic scenario worth discussing? Please note that this does not include the "magically kill off 90% of the population and move everyone into the commune" plan.

 

It's worth noting that the majority of the most egregious abuses increase in direct proportion to the extent that the state controls the resources of a given country. A monopoly in the hands of a government, especially in the third world, is much more dangerous than a monopoly in the hands of a corporation, given that along with the economic power comes the political power necessary to suppress dissent and help themselves to the treasury with no effective scrutiny from the public. Add to this the fact that state control effectively raises the stakes of political change from simple administration to outright ownership and control, and you've also got a pretty nice recipe for political instability and turbulence, which fuels a perpetual carnage that relegates any harm inflicted by private corporations to subtrivial status by comparison.