which ice screws?

[rockermike]

Time for some new screws. Which to get? BD, P, or CM? all look good in the catalogue ;-)

BD, good reputation, a little cheaper

P, longer winder arm

CM, looks like you can screw in with sling attached (without twisting up sling) so less likely to drop.

(edit: whoops, my mistake, it was Grivel 360s that were the third choice (on sale at bent gate). From comments below it looks like these are good ticket?)

Edited October 26, 2005 by rockermike

[Dru]

Grivel?

[John Frieh]

Grivel Americana and 360

 

Edit: If you are using CM for charlet moser and P for Petzl keep in mind they are the same company now (called Petzl Charlet).

Edited October 26, 2005 by NOLSe

[Phil K]

The Grivel 360s

 

Sharp and smooth, and the way they place so easily without having to carve a big clearance area for the hanger is SWEET! Plus, they have room to clip more than one biner at a time, unlike the BDs. My only dislike is that they don't rack as cleanly as other screws with longer hangers. Grivel makes a moulded rubber carrying setup (the panpipe {?}) to carry screws. Anyone tried that?

[John Frieh]

I have a panpipe. Great for cragging... too heavy for alpine. Carries the 360 (or whatever) nicely.

 

You can also rack 2 360s on one ice clipper (I prefer the petzl ones)... if you have multiple ice clippers you can get approx 6 on your harness.

[PaulB]

JoJo gives a good endorsement for Grivel screws in this thread: "For what ever it is worth; we had both Grivel and BD screws and in the future I will take only Grivel screws on a climb like this. The BD screws were by far harder and slower to place. The Grivel screws, despite taking up more room on the rack, were far superior."

[dbb]

and I'm sure endorsements from famous climbers are in no way biased...

 

I think it comes down to getting a quality brand screw, and keeping it sharp. I personally don't like the grivel 360 that much because of the racking (they are easier to start and place in hard ice though!). I can get 5 BD-style screws onto one ice clipper, and with a sharp nice new BD or Americana, I doubt you could tell much of a difference. Haven't tried the laser sonic, but haven't heard stelar reviews...

[John Frieh]

Work up on the bias AD.

 

BD and Americana place equally fast and are both excellent screws but I switched from BD to Grivel Americanas last year because the position of the knob on the grivel americana screw allows you to get the screw started before you flip the knob out easier/faster (by palming the screw) but more importantly your hand doesn't come off the screw when flipping out the knob so you don't risk the screw falling out while reaching for the knob (like in the case of the BD screw). This likely doesn't make any sense reading it but will make sense if you play around with the two models.

 

I only carry a few 360s as they are a bitch to rack... I save them for the "hurry and place this" times as they place faster than any other screw I have used.

 

I didn't like the sonics when I used them.

[rhyang]

Has anyone used the Grivel Helix yet ?

[Dru]

I found the Americana was great to place but could be a bitch to remove when you have to work against the fold out lever arm instead of with it.

[glassgowkiss]

i use cm (the one with swinging hanger). they start much easier and you need to clean much less ice then for bd.

[DanielHarro]

Get two of each, they each have pros and cons. mix it up!! Nolse did show me his Grivels and they were nice, I use BD's because I got them cheep...Remember its not about the tools or the screws it is about how good the climber is that is using the equipment. Become efficiant with the gear you have.

[catbirdseat]

I have a couple of 360s that I bought on sale. They are easy to place but they are a bitch to rack. Does anyone have ideas on how to rack them better. Does it help to have more ice clippers? Maybe rack fewer screws per clipper? Those handles get fouled in everything.

 

I tried a couple of Helix screws last year and thought they were the easiest of all to place, specifically to get started, but like the 360s they too are difficult to rack.

 

 

[G-spotter]

Panpipe CBS.

 

Fwiw my fav screws at the moment are the spendy Charlet Laser Sonics with the swivelling bolt hanger.

[Jens]

You'll get a million different opinions.

I personally like the petzl/charlet sonics the best.

I like BD 2nd.

I think all the grivel screws suck for WA, OR, and SWBC because they don't have enough float. We get such funky ice our here that your frequently have to do some chopping to finish screwing them in all the way. More float= less chopping. Also the Petzl/charlet sonic screws start the easiest.

Also racking grivel screws for easy access on stout steep lines sucks.

[catbirdseat]

Of all the screws I have tried, the Laser Sonic was my least favorite. It was the hardest start and the swivel binds when you turn it. Perhaps the screw I was using was in poor condition.

 

The nice thing about a swivelling bolt hanger is that you could remove the screw with the sling still on it, thus eliminating the chance to drop it. Do you guys actually do this?

 

Yes, the Pan Pipe or the Ice Flute would seem to be a good solution for racking some types of ice screws.

 

Jens, by "float", I take it that you are referring to the ability of the hanger to shift up and down to clear obstructions when it is turned? The 360 is very good in this regard, is it not?

Edited January 24, 2008 by catbirdseat

[JayB]

Must not have been talking about the 360's...(?)

[OlympicMtnBoy]

I favor the laser sonics, cept for being a bit pricey. I got one on REI closeout last year and kick myself for not getting a few more. At the Feathered Friends gear demo night they had clear ice blocks set up for the v thread contest and I got to watch a CM screw driven right next to a BD screw. With the clear ice it was obvious that there was a whole lot less internal fracturing with the CM screw than the BD screw. I'm not sure how much this really related to the real world, but it was eye opening. My laser sonic starts super easy and the handle doesn't bind on me. I do unscrew it with the sling attached some of the time. Just my $0.02.

[Jens]

I personally find that I can't spin the grivel 360's in my palm.

The petzl/charlet sonics rock for hard ice climbing when the clock is ticking.

[Rafael_H]

My main evaluation criterion is how quickly I can place the screw: take out, stick from 1 or 2 twists. Then comes racking.

Years before I tried almost all of them, BD, 360, Americana, CM and DMM:

- got rid of all of the Grivel's - just a pain on all aspects. If one thinks of ice screw placement any other time but under the stress of leading, it is very easy to figure out the max twist position, how not to drop it, etc.

- got CM-s even before they had an extra rotating hanger and they placed great.

- then got a DMM to try and it placed better than all others at the time, too bad they do not have an "express" twisting contraption.

- this year's BD-s place as good as DMM, and have the knob, and rack great.

 

Now I just use Petzl and BD, both have unique advantages, like simply hitting the BD hanger to brake off a small ice chunk is not possible with P if you happen to choose such a spot in a hurry. Petzl - what glassgo said plus easier to screw on closer to your torso.

[tvashtarkatena]

From a newbie ice climber:

 

I use laser sonics, and like them. I find the BD flip out handles difficult to manipulate with gloves, but then again I haven't placed very many. The few Grivel 360s I've placed seem to go in very quickly, but two of them worked their way out of my ice clipper on a single pitch once and wound up at the base. Presumably their long, funky hangers had something to do with it.

 

Racking: I've started using 6 ice flutes (3 per side) on my harness, and that seems to be fast, easy, and flexible, even with big gloves. It also keeps the screws from banging on and dulling each other, or catching on things. I've got an ice clipper on either side, just forward of the ice flutes, that I carry more screws on. Personally, I find unclipping screws from ice clippers awkward. I've been carrying quick draws on the forward gear loops, but I'm going to try moving them to the aft gear loops and/or shoulder slings so they don't interfere with the screw hangers.

[bigwallpete]

Quoting Don Serl from the 1st edition of West Coast Ice, I think he says it best.

 

"One general comment that can be passed along regarding ice screws is that variety is better than a homogeneous rack. Ice is highly variable, and optimim placements can usually be found for short screws and for long screws, for drive in's and threaded screws, fot fat tubes and their thinner cousins. resist the temptation to stock up on the latest, greatest arrival on the scene; buy broad, not deep."

 

Obviously you need to change some of the wording to match the market of today but you get the point. Glad to hear the feedback on the laser sonics been thinking about picking up a couple getting rid of a couple older BD's.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

I finally had a chance to use the new BDs this past weekend, and they are pretty amazing. My previous favorite screw was the helix (which i own none of), but these new BDs really up the ante for easy starts. Would like to use them in more ice conditions before I completely commit to them, but the initial test was very promising.

[G-spotter]

Usually the easiest screw to place is your newest one due to dulling from use...

[TrogdortheBurninator]

true, but the new ones feel noticeably different from the old ones imo. Have you used them yet?