selkirk Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Ok, i'm feeling in the mood for a nice tempest in a teapot so... Has anyone considered replacing the two bolts at the belay between the 4th and 5th pitchs on Orbit? (2 old rusty 1/4" bols, one with a home-made hanger, that are roughly 4 ft apart). The belay isn't bad, 1 good nut placement for a downward pull (but pointless for any upward) and a small crack you could get a cam or two into (blue TCU size). I don't think I'd trust the bolts for a direct fall onto the anchor and the spacing is so awkward that it makes for some bad angles if you try to tie them together. Seems to be a good opportunity to streamline, and increase the safety level of the belay without adding any new bolts. Fire away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCash Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Seams like a good idea to me. At the same time replace or remove the old rusty bolts on the pitch getting up to that stance. Keep those fixed pins though, they looked good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrythellama Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 why not just climb thru to the better stance and just leave the rock and history alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 The bolt that this draw is clipped to? I though that one of those two had been replaced already with stainless 3/8"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 No, I think that is the rap anchor in the dihedral above the 3rd belay, just after the 5.9ish finger cracks. (This pitch (4?) goes up the dihedral, past a really sketchy rap anchor (2 home made bolt hangers with some webbing and rings on it, and I think that is what's clipped in the pick.) I also think both of the bolts at that rap anchor were pretty sketchy as well. Relatively new but looked homemade to me. We belayed from the trees at the bottom of this corner and climbed past it. The ones i'm talking about are at the end of this pitch. (up the pictured dihedral, around a small corner, up another dihedral, right onto the face and then up a short runnout section with some small cam placements, a pin, and 1 rusty bolt on the face.) The ones I was thinking of are pretty distinctive because they're on seperate sides of a small corner. (1 actual hanger, one funky square job, and they're a good 3 or 4 ft apart.) There's a little sloping foot ledge just below them to stand on. Was there a better belay above Larry? I don't remeber seeing any good stances or nice belay points in the short dihedral above the 2 bolts, or on the face below the small roof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 why not just climb thru to the better stance and just leave the rock and history alone? brilliance from a llama! Please leave the bolts as is....there is plenty of gear above and below these 1/4" rusty bolts. And I do believe there is plenty good belays above the bolts Selkirk mentions...just stretch the rope a bit more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 why not just climb thru to the better stance and just leave the rock and history alone? brilliance from a llama! Please leave the bolts as is....there is plenty of gear above and below these 1/4" rusty bolts. And I do believe there is plenty good belays above the bolts Selkirk mentions...just stretch the rope a bit more... Ditto. Once it starts, it is a slippery slide. I have never trusted 1/4 inch bolts old or new. And I have always found bomber protection on Orbit even at the exposed corner (2 small wires are bomber). All the belays I used took good pro and I clearly remember thinking how amazingly good the natural pro at 45 meter belay stations was. Ignore the bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyleaf Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 (edited) I just climbed Orbit 2 weeks ago and know exactly what you are talking about. I'm pretty sure they are both 1/4" rusted, loose, piles. Edited August 30, 2005 by Dirtyleaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 why not just climb thru to the better stance and just leave the rock and history alone? brilliance from a llama! Please leave the bolts as is....there is plenty of gear above and below these 1/4" rusty bolts. And I do believe there is plenty good belays above the bolts Selkirk mentions...just stretch the rope a bit more... Ditto. Once it starts, it is a slippery slide. I have never trusted 1/4 inch bolts old or new. And I have always found bomber protection on Orbit even at the exposed corner (2 small wires are bomber). All the belays I used took good pro and I clearly remember thinking how amazingly good the natural pro at 45 meter belay stations was. Ignore the bolts. Why replace something that is not necessary? My vote, leave as it is, because there is already plenty of natural gear to be had, rock preservation, and historical reasons. I love being on old routes and seeing old spinner 1/4 inchers or old soft irons. Just recently on Mt. Kenya on the route I came across an old wooden peg. My respects to the guys and gals of yesteryear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Huh? If they are unnecessary, pull them as garbage. Is the rap webbing on route historical as well? When they were placed, they were meant to be reliable. 40 yrs later they are less so, as fixed gear gets weaker with time. Leaving iffy gear on route doesn't make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mec Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 i agree tomtom, why replace bolts on one route and not the other. the reason to replace them all is that they are manky. If they are not needed, they should be removed. With the decent gear that can be had at that belay, replacing 1 bolt and removing the other would create many bomber belay oportunities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 They were probably placed not as a regular anchor but as a bail anchor by some party backing off in the late 1970s which is why they are in such an odd spot and so poorly spaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 why not just climb thru to the better stance and just leave the rock and history alone? Agreed. They are totally unnecessary and at most should be removed, certainly not replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I asked Fred, and he said leave the bolts as they be...rusty or not. If you do not trust do not use. If you have any other complaints then talk to Fred... If you can catch him...Fast Freddy is now back in the Sierras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Word from the Mount... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) Word from the Mount... Fred is the King Mountie and ripping on mounties is like ripping on Fred, which is like ripping on your grandpa.. shameless. EDIT: BTW-I am not saying ScottP is ripping on Fred. Just merely adding coal to another fire. Edited August 31, 2005 by bwrts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I thought he mean it to be like "word from on high" "or word from the holy man of climbing"...as a statement of respect or worship...not as mountie bashing. yes, do what ever Fred says. that is his climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Hobbick Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 i agree tomtom, why replace bolts on one route and not the other. Some routes are classics and some aren't. C'mon. As the route sits, its all natural. If you put a bolt there, were there really isn't one now, (what is there now is a piece of history as it seems that nobody would trust it anymore) you'd be changing the route. The route would then have a useable bolt on it... that would suck. I believe the intent of the original poster is good, but as they say the road to hell is paved whith good intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 The route was originally AID by FRED. freed by (I think) another party....but really....in material. Bolt is there, rusty and why waste time to replace mank so far away from the car... plus, this is in the wilderness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Huh? If they are unnecessary, pull them as garbage. Is the rap webbing on route historical as well? When they were placed, they were meant to be reliable. 40 yrs later they are less so, as fixed gear gets weaker with time. Leaving iffy gear on route doesn't make any sense. I can sort of see your point, yes I see rap slings as garbage. I guess what the difference is that rap slings are not meant to be permenant where a bolt is. Maybe I am wrong on this. Yes when it was placed that bolt was supposed to be reliable. Also yes if it was necessary for the route to be safe and the first assentionist and/or the community wanted it replaced, by all means replace it. In this case we have a bolt that is not necessary maybe because modern gear or maybe like Dru said it was placed by someone trying to bail. I don't agree just because something is suspect it should be removed. Whether or not it is used is up for the person climbing the route to decide, just like any other piece of gear you are hopefully assessing the quality of it. That is one of the thing I like about climbing, the engineering of a safe route. So Tomtom what should we do, remove all suspect items, bolts and pins or how about those expando flakes or the blocks that seem to somehow magically stay on the cliff just to make routes safe? That does not make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Huh? If they are unnecessary, pull them as garbage. Is the rap webbing on route historical as well? When they were placed, they were meant to be reliable. 40 yrs later they are less so, as fixed gear gets weaker with time. Leaving iffy gear on route doesn't make any sense. I can sort of see your point, yes I see rap slings as garbage. I guess what the difference is that rap slings are not meant to be permenant where a bolt is. Maybe I am wrong on this. Yes when it was place that bolt was supposed to be reliable. Also yes if it was necessary for the route to be safe and the first assentionist and/or the community wanted it replaced, by all means replace it. In this case we have a bolt that is not necessary maybe because modern gear or maybe like Dru said it was placed by someone trying to bail. I don't agree just because something is suspect it should be removed, whether or not it is used is up for the person climbing the route to decide. That is one of the thing like about climbing, engineering of a safe route. What should we do, remove all suspect items, bolts and pins or how about those expando flakes or the blocks that seem to somehow magically stay on the cliff just to make the route safe? That does not make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 So Tomtom what should we do, remove all suspect items, bolts and pins or how about those expando flakes or the blocks that seem to somehow magically stay on the cliff just to make routes safe? That does not make sense to me. Actually I did remove a giant loose flake one day a couple years ago right above that belay. But thats another story... I figured the bolt out left was to facilitate the switchover of leads as that position would be a bit awkward without it. No way I'd trust it as a single point but as part of the belay it seems fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I asked Fred, and he said leave the bolts as they be...rusty or not. If you do not trust do not use. If you have any other complaints then talk to Fred... If you can catch him...Fast Freddy is now back in the Sierras. Whatever. Yank that shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcollins Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Whoa man that ain't cool, and this is definately showing disrespect, are you aware what you've just done???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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